Thunderhead BP-Need help with whorl carving

[Japonicus]

Hi folks. I stumbled upon your forum doing a search for whorl removal on pine bonsai.
Selection was done at a nursery on the internet, so please don't condemn the recipient too bad.

Today, (zone 6a in western WV USA) I hard pruned to get a beginning or reference point of direction for this Thunderhead.
Reducing up to 90% of the foliage and branches during Winter dormancy , and 4" of the original height.
My plans are to recapture the $100 invested ($40 of which was shipping) at minimum for this tree.
At best, to create a nice addition to my collection if I like where it goes in the next couple years.
Plans are 4-5 years to achieve collection piece or face value in 2 yrs.

Problem is, the tree is/was more bushy with 7 branches + leader all stemming from the same whorl. Ugly.
My inquiry is when, should I carve out the excess wood, so as to remove the whorl?
When should this occur after the tree recovers (time of year), and in stages, or get it done and apply what, to the large gaping wound?

 

[Japonicus]

BTW, the retailer said the grafting is 2 years healed using a 1 year old branch/stock.
No idea what the root stock is though.

 

[Adair M]

Dude, you’re not going to like what I’m gonna tell you, but I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em:

That will never make a pleasing bonsai.

First off Thunderhead is not a good variety for bonsai. Then, you have that huge scar/bulge/graft Union. Sure, in maybe 20 years it can heal over after you carve it out. But then, you’ll still have a Thunderhead.

Call it a $100 lesson on knowing how to pick out bonsai material. Sadly, it’s not worth your time.

I know, it sounds like I’m being a jerk. I’m really trying to help. The hardest thing to learn is how to choose material to work with.

I believe that Ryan Neil has posted a couple videos on his website where he goes to a nursery and he shows what he looks for.

Better luck next time!

 

[Japonicus]

Dude, you’re not going to like what I’m gonna tell you, but I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em:

That will never make a pleasing bonsai.

First off Thunderhead is not a good variety for bonsai. Then, you have that huge scar/bulge/graft Union. Sure, in maybe 20 years it can heal over after you carve it out. But then, you’ll still have a Thunderhead.

Call it a $100 lesson on knowing how to pick out bonsai material. Sadly, it’s not worth your time.

I know, it sounds like I’m being a jerk. I’m really trying to help. The hardest thing to learn is how to choose material to work with.

I believe that Ryan Neil has posted a couple videos on his website where he goes to a nursery and he shows what he looks for.

Better luck next time!

Hey thanks Adair. So perhaps in a couple years I can re-coop my $$ on eBay.
In the meantime, I can't assume a lost cause, and can still practice needle reduction
root pruning and whorl removal. I knew when I saw the tree, and replied to the retailer
(who said he was sending his best candidate for bonsai) that I would be retired before the
tree looked great. I also knew my time would be a huge investment in this when I unboxed it.

I will check out Ryans videos if I can find them, but I was relying on 2nd party to be honest
and could not lay eyes on the tree, only the species. I chose the Thunderhead, based on pictures
of completed ones I've seen. That was my choice for sure. Call it a challenge I suppose

So, when, should I attack the whorl?

 

[Adair M]

Hey thanks Adair. So perhaps in a couple years I can re-coop my $$ on eBay.
In the meantime, I can't assume a lost cause, and can still practice needle reduction
root pruning and whorl removal. I knew when I saw the tree, and replied to the retailer
(who said he was sending his best candidate for bonsai) that I would be retired before the
tree looked great. I also knew my time would be a huge investment in this when I unboxed it.

I will check out Ryans videos if I can find them, but I was relying on 2nd party to be honest
and could not lay eyes on the tree, only the species. I chose the Thunderhead, based on pictures
of completed ones I've seen. That was my choice for sure. Call it a challenge I suppose

So, when, should I attack the whorl?

Let it recover from the heavy pruning.

Needle reduction and wound healing are not compatible. Choose one or the other. Same with root reduction. You see, to heal the wounds you’ve created, the the more you’re going to make, you need strong growth. To get strong growth, you need a larger pot (or plant in the ground), lots of fertilizer, and lots of foliage. (Aka long needles). You see, needles are the food factories. Without long needles, especially since you prunedso much off, the tree can’t grow. No growth, no wound healing.

Do you see where I’m going with this?

By the way, where have you seen good Thunderhead bonsai? Japanese Black Pines make good bonsai, but Thunderhead JBP does not. Thunderheads are fast growing with heavy twinging (as in thick), and were developed to be landscape trees.

 

[Japonicus]

Hi Adair. Yes recovery is intended and in ground planting with only root straightening (no pruning or very lightly to remove any dead roots as I comb them) and planting on
a 12 x 12" floor tile just below soil line as the buds swell this Spring.

My question is however, what time of year...is favourable...for the contents of the OP? Mid Winter? Late Summer?
I normally only insult any tree once in a given year, be it repotting, or heavy pruning (above or below soil), or initial needle reduction (heavy).
So good advice to let it rest indeed. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Japonicus]

BTW Adair, while I've got you here, and see you're from Georgia,
have you visited the Monastery in Conyers? They've closed their online store
and I can no longer get their bonsai soil I dearly loved, and so miss using.
Very nice folks to talk with on the tele, and plan to visit when I pass through if still open.

 

[jriddell88]

Yes unfortunately I think you got burned , I would have put it in the ground as a landscape tree , but since you have just practice basic horticultural techniques, repotting ,etc and keep looking for something better , Adair’s opinion and advice is on point.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Unless wanting large tree with longer needles and years to get rid of big bulge is better in landscape. Bottom trunk straight/boring needs big tree to make less obvious. Carving best done in dormancy period. Please add location to profile.

 

[Japonicus]

Unless wanting large tree with longer needles and years to get rid of big bulge is better in landscape. Bottom trunk straight/boring needs big tree to make less obvious. Carving best done in dormancy period. Please add location to profile.

Thank you. I was tending towards Winter dormancy, so perhaps next Winter if this year goes well.
This was the main reason to join and make this post/question in the OP, to determine timing. Thanks again.

So, as to the thunbergii Thunderhead as acquired stock, sure, not the best choice, and I let the seller know that I would have
never looked twice at this particular tree, with no reply. Was a seller in N.C. but that's all I'll say about that.
As for the choice of sub species, Bonsai Boy of NY sells these, and when I did a search for the Thunderhead, many results manifest
and all looked great. Though, so many results never fully match a search criteria accurately.
The needles are shorter and growth more compact than the locally sold garden centre Pinus Nigra which has worked out
marvelously as to needle reduction and bonsai material. I assumed this one would do well since it is readily available as bonsai and listed as
excellent for small spaces and also as a dwarf Japanese BP.

I have one BP with 5-6" long needles I've been told that has been successfully used as bonsai material yet I've let it go untrained.
I forget the variety it is.

 

[Japonicus]

So whenever I do undertake the whorl carving in Winter, be it next or the following year...
what should I apply to the large wound? A mighty tree in the ground can suffer loss due to wound sealant
pest, disease and rot, but being bonsai we want the band aid till healed correct? What would you guys use on yours?

 

[Japonicus]

I fully intend to allow the two bottom branches to remain until the whorl heals, lest one
of the branches does not survive the surgery before I decide which will be the primary.
It looks like a whorl was grafted to the root stock .
Tree is listed as 6' high and 4' wide at 10 yr maturity on one site.

 

[aframe]

In spring Throw it in the ground for a few years; fastest way to fix the whorl is to let it grow untouched. Build needle mass. You could use a concave cutter to remove one of the knobs. Next year remove another if the tree is healing the cuts well. But I don’t think the tree will heal very well because you removed a lot of growth.
You may need to protect it this winter, you’ve compromised its cold hardiness by removing so much growth.

There’s opportunities to carve down the road, if it makes it through the winter...maybe zone 6a doesn’t get that cold...

 

[Potawatomi13]

If carving use regular cut paste or grafting wax. With much growth of sacrifice branch/apex will come fast healing. Takes several years for rot to develop. Personally do not use except for fear of bleeding of pitch if done during growing time.

 

[Adair M]

The Monastary is still open.

I make my own soil from lava, pumice, and akadama.

Early spring would be the time to plant in the ground.

When addressing a whorle like that, I would have kept maybe 3 branches. First, choose the front based upon the nebari, and movement of the lower trunk. Because of the knob that’s already there, it’s not suited for a formal upright, but informal upright is a possibility. Which means the trunk will most likely come out of the ground at an angle.

Then,choose which of the whirl of branches you want to continue the trunk line, and which to be the first branch. If there is a good “back branch” you can keep it too. Then remove or cut back the large branches you don’t want leave an inch of stub. Seal end with cut paste. Come back 6 month’s later and begin carving out the stubs.

Planting on a tile is ok. It’s no substitute for proper root work. You want to get the rootball shaped so that it is flat on the bottom at the angle you want the tree to emerge from the ground. Remove downward growing roots and crossing roots, and any roots that have air showing beneath them.

Next time choose a better type of JBP.

Avoid Bonsaiboy.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

What about ground-layering around the graft union. I know layers are hit or miss (mostly miss) on JBP, but it is nice and swollen and could make for a pleasing base. Maybe use some fresh hormone (I hear it degrades easily), and plant it in the ground or a raised bed and let the top go crazy for a few years.

 

[Adair M]

What about ground-layering around the graft union. I know layers are hit or miss (mostly miss) on JBP, but it is nice and swollen and could make for a pleasing base. Maybe use some fresh hormone (I hear it degrades easily), and plant it in the ground or a raised bed and let the top go crazy for a few years.

JBP are difficult to layer.

Besides, he’s still stuck with a Thunderhead!

 

[MrFancyPlants]

JBP are difficult to layer.

Besides, he’s still stuck with a Thunderhead!

I don't disagree with you on either point, but I think it is a best chance at a way forward with the tree. "Thunderhead" seem to be quite vigorous; It could be a fun project to grow out in the ground for a while to target a larger size tree and practice pruning, wiring and the implementation of sacrifice growth.

 

[Adair M]

It would make a great garden tree.

 

[Japonicus]

The Monastary is still open.

I make my own soil from lava, pumice, and akadama.

Early spring would be the time to plant in the ground.

When addressing a whorle like that, I would have kept maybe 3 branches. First, choose the front based upon the nebari, and movement of the lower trunk. Because of the knob that’s already there, it’s not suited for a formal upright, but informal upright is a possibility. Which means the trunk will most likely come out of the ground at an angle.

Then,choose which of the whirl of branches you want to continue the trunk line, and which to be the first branch. If there is a good “back branch” you can keep it too. Then remove or cut back the large branches you don’t want leave an inch of stub. Seal end with cut paste. Come back 6 month’s later and begin carving out the stubs.

Planting on a tile is ok. It’s no substitute for proper root work. You want to get the rootball shaped so that it is flat on the bottom at the angle you want the tree to emerge from the ground. Remove downward growing roots and crossing roots, and any roots that have air showing beneath them.

Next time choose a better type of JBP.

Avoid Bonsaiboy.

Thank you Adair for taking the time, on what most are considering a lost cause. I value the input of you guys who know what you're doing.

The tile below surface at least forces the roots laterally, (for most root ball sizes I deal with) to the tiles edge. There's always a chance for the unexpected set back
that could prevent one from performing necessary tasks. You're right though, it is not a substitute.

Spring it is. I shall plant it in ground, and yes do better homework on variety choice next time.
Good to know Bonsai Monk still has the Monastery open. Is it worth stopping by to see their work?
It would be worth it for me to pick up about 20g of their soil and save on shipping. Delving into the hobby
I reckon I should be making my own soil. Am using New England Bonsai masters soil now. It's close, but not close enough.
Too many fines and way too many huge pieces to sift out.

Hope the bonsai show goes great this week. Thanks again.