What am I missing?

[Bonsai Nut]

Are all prices somehow inflated when they hit " netland ".

I have become very spoiled living on the West Coast. There are lots of decent nurseries around, and a relatively large bonsai market which helps those nurseries keep their prices reasonable. With all of that, I am amazed at some of the prices that bonsai fetch on eBay. In some cases, I am confident that I could buy a few trees from the local nursery at full retail and resell them on eBay for a tidy profit. Fortunately I am busy and lazy at the same time

 

[Dale Cochoy]

Hi Dale,
I think you read my post wrong. I didn't suggest that you or anyone else makes money on shipping. I don't make money either on shipping or packaging. I do make a point of saying that the cost of boxing that the 75 pound tree is part of the total sale. What I was implying is that internet sales have a inflated cost over what you might have to pay walking into a studio and choosing an item.

OK, yes Tom, Internet sales I believe are much higher than "walk in" or convention prices, plus, I'm sure LOTS of dealers are making bucks with shipping. I know over the years I have often seen fairly heavy shipping/handing costs on items that I knew were not expensive to ship.
Lucky for them that there are a lot of folks that LIVE to "get stuff in the mail"
One thing that has really driven up the cost of shipping is the cost of insuring an item. If it is a possible theft item ( small but expensive) you must insure and if it could in any way possible get broken you must insure. Sometimes people are shocked at what shipping is once you tag on the extra insurance costs. I also use USPO "delivery confirmation" as a quasi insurance once in a while
I feel pretty confident with my charges for shipping tools that I can usually "cover" myself, although I have a few times gotten burned with different rules for different countries when shipping so I finally had to go to the 10% for out of country. It's suprising how many restrictions/rules we don't know about that every country has with their PO or UPS. For instance, I recently learned about the insurance on mailed items to Holland having fairly low limitations, there was no way to cover myself on a large order with their insurance limits.
But, with pottery I am ALWAYS suprised at SOMETHING so I never quote a price until it is actually mailed.
I'm only discussing this, BTW, so people can get a better handle on dealer expenses which they may have never thought about and to show that reputable dealers really do want to help keep customers costs down. In the long run its good for everyone involved.

Vic, It's only a short drive!!

Jeez, I DID tell you I'd GIVE you a tree if you came here didn't I ??
A memory like an elephant! Thats bad.....in a woman!

Dale

 

[Dale Cochoy]

I have become very spoiled living on the West Coast. There are lots of decent nurseries around, and a relatively large bonsai market which helps those nurseries keep their prices reasonable. With all of that, I am amazed at some of the prices that bonsai fetch on eBay. In some cases, I am confident that I could buy a few trees from the local nursery at full retail and resell them on eBay for a tidy profit. Fortunately I am busy and lazy at the same time

BNut,
What do you figure that a lot of wannabe bonsai businesses on eBay do? Do you think that most of those dealers on eBay ( that no one in the business has ever heard of or seen at a convention) do?
You know, the guy that bought HIS first tree on eBay 6 months before and figured, "Hey, I like these, I should sell them, after all, I know computers, and heck, I don't REALLY need to know bonsai".
Did you figure they potted, styled and wired those trees. Did you figure THEY actually wrapped that golf ball in that twisted ficus ?
I am suprised that you list being busy and lazy as the reason for not doing what you speculated though. I guess a sign of our times.

I realize, as with the case of the tree that started this thread, that folks new to bonsai or those that really never "get out and about" in the bonsai world would probably have a hard time sifting through dealers to deal with on eBay. I myself, who gets around a tad, can often see people I recognize dealing trees and I'd not fear dealing with them,but then there is the majority that basically knows nothing about the art. They are just....clever.
Every time there is a thread on eBay we read about the great deals....then there is the "Chef Dave"-type threads as seen elsewhere. Those SEEM to go in one eye and out the other when folks read them. It's too bad that eBay buyers don't usually try to get to know the guys they are dealing with.



Dale

 

[Graydon]

BNut,
It's too bad that eBay buyers don't usually try to get to know the guys they are dealing with.

I agree Dale. I purchase from one person on eBay and have gotten to know the seller. It's his only sales venue other than locals and I am nowhere near the seller. He does not list stuff often and when he does I hope to catch it. He almost only offers the stuff as a "buy it now" and charges actual shipping fees like you noted. It's always a pleasure to deal with him and the material is always nice for what I spend.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I am suprised that you list being busy and lazy as the reason for not doing what you speculated though. I guess a sign of our times.

It was humor I assumed that the first thing someone would ask is - if you think you could sell these trees for a profit, why don't you? Once you get to know me first hand you would describe me as the least lazy person you ever met. Since I tend to have a low opinion of lazy people, I call myself lazy

I agree with everything ELSE you wrote though One of my other hobbies is that I buy and show koi. I buy most of my koi from an auction site direct from breeders in Japan. I get top quality fish at prices that are about 50% of what I would pay at retail in Southern California. At the same time, I see koi listed and sold on eBay that are very low quality. The sellers of these koi describe them as "select" or "show quality" when they are anything but. However they still sell at (to me) very high prices for their quality standard.

It reminds me of the origins of GIA certification for diamonds. Back in the early 1900's there were many diamond dealers of questionable reputation, and diamonds were often listed as "A" "B" or "C" quality, with no necessary agreement about what those terms meant. Most often, diamonds were declared as "A" quality regardless of their true value, so that they could be sold to an un-informed public for a premium. When GIA was formed in the 1930's their color standard started with "D" (colorless) so that their grading system would not be confused with the old-fashioned system.

What we need is an international "GIA" for bonsai so that each tree comes with its own "quality certificate". Instead of the 4-C's of diamonds, we could have the 4-S's:

Species (rarity and general difficulty of the tree to obtain and grow successfully)
Strength (general health and well-being of the tree, and its observable strength)
Styling (technical aspects of development, styling, and finish)
Spirit (the qualitative "art" aspect of the tree - its force and ability to generate an emotional response)

Tongue firmly inserted in cheek Bonsai is an art form, and I don't think you can quantitively "grade" a bonsai any more than you can "grade" a poem. However... standards DO exist, especially for shows, and it is an interesting thing to contemplate. Bonsai as a commodity... hmmmm....

I'll take 4 "AAAA" japanese black pines please - what is the current price on the exchange?

 

[Dwight]

OK , this brings up a question that I have asked many times on many sites. This includes your koi BN. What does the guy who lives in Podunk , Iowa or , like me in El Paso Nowhere close To Anything , Texas do. SoCal is 800 mi , Phoenix ( which as far as bonsai and koi isn't much better than here ) is 450 mi , Austin and Dallas are 600+ mi and Houston is as far as LA. The web is about my only source. With the koi I got lucky and found a dealer in LA who I know , trust and have become friends with so thats OK if a little on the expensive side. But bonsai ???? I've ordered and received two trees from web sites. Both were priced way below the web prices but only one was as I had requested and both died ( probably my fault ). So what do I do ? Travel to LA and spend a week traveling the maize of that monstrosity to visit four or five nurseries ? Then talk the owners into shipping the trees anyway because I live in never-never land ?

E-bay does occasionally offer what appears to be a resonable buy but if I know nothing about the seller then I'm not gonna buy. The web sources offer at best a contact and if one doesn't personally call and talk to someone human you have no idea what you're getting. It's really quite frustrating as the local Lowes just SUCKS ( this for Will ).

PS ( edit ) How the hell can a " foreigner " get a Cal juniper ?

 

[Rick Moquin]

I assumed that the first thing someone would ask is - if you think you could sell these trees for a profit, why don't you?

..only one word comes to mind INTEGRITY which at time sit seems is a rare commodity these days.

 

[Rick Moquin]

OK , this brings up a question that I have asked many times on many sites. This includes your koi BN. What does the guy who lives in Podunk , Iowa or , like me in El Paso Nowhere close To Anything , Texas do. SoCal is 800 mi , Phoenix ( which as far as bonsai and koi isn't much better than here ) is 450 mi , Austin and Dallas are 600+ mi and Houston is as far as LA. The web is about my only source. With the koi I got lucky and found a dealer in LA who I know , trust and have become friends with so thats OK if a little on the expensive side. But bonsai ???? I've ordered and received two trees from web sites. Both were priced way below the web prices but only one was as I had requested and both died ( probably my fault ). So what do I do ? Travel to LA and spend a week traveling the maize of that monstrosity to visit four or five nurseries ? Then talk the owners into shipping the trees anyway because I live in never-never land ?

E-bay does occasionally offer what appears to be a resonable buy but if I know nothing about the seller then I'm not gonna buy. The web sources offer at best a contact and if one doesn't personally call and talk to someone human you have no idea what you're getting. It's really quite frustrating as the local Lowes just SUCKS ( this for Will ).

PS ( edit ) How the hell can a " foreigner " get a Cal juniper ?

IMO, the only way to buy a tree is in person, regardless if it is a bonsai, pre-bonsai, yamadori or nursery stock. 2D pictures do not give credit to what is offered (period)

I have made a purchase from an extremely (with capital E) reputable dealer, not a tree but something else. I did not receive what I had purchased, close, but no cigar. Would I purchase a tree from the net, not in your lifetime.

 

[Smoke]

Tongue firmly inserted in cheek Bonsai is an art form, and I don't think you can quantitively "grade" a bonsai any more than you can "grade" a poem.

....for a month or two at least.....

 

[Dwight]

Oh now thats encouraging Rick ! Actually I really do see your point. I traveled to Japan last fall to pick out some fish. The trip cost me three times what the fish did and I ended up with some fabulous fish ( thats also why my bonsai budget is in the toilet ). I'd love to do the same with bonsai but finding nursery's here is impossible. Guess I'll just have to hop in the ole truck and drive to Japan East ( Cal ) but what a hassle. If I flew and rented a car it would cost three times as much. Too bad there arn't ant dealers in , say Alburquerque ( sp ???)

 

[Rick Moquin]

Dwight,

I truly feel your frustration as we are in similar situations. I have replied more in depth on your other thread. Life is a bitch my friend...

 

[Dale Cochoy]

Dwight,
Next June there is an American Bonsai Society symposium in conjunction with Lone Star State convention in San Antonio.
You might think about that.
BTW, I will be there.
Dale

 

[Dwight]

Damn , the wife has us going to Alaska in June.....guess since she's followed me to so many car shows and even a koi show or two I need to do the cruse thing. You think a convention or show is a good place to look for stock ? Seems it would concentrate dealers.

 

[Anonymous User]

Which brings us to the old saying, a bonsai is worth exactly what someone will pay for it.


Will

 

[Dwight]

Same is true in koi and at times it makes it difficult for some to participate cause , like koi , some bonsai arn't really worth what someone pays. I remember this from a business man who I knew well for years.....product has two values , intrinsic ( i.e. cost + a resonable profit ) and market. In a sane market they are usually pretty close. In a hobby oriented market ( he was into guitar collecting ) there is absolutely no relationship.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

To prove a point... a 21" kotobuki I picked up today from a reputable nursery here in Southern Cal. Set me back $70.

 

[rlist]

To prove a point... a 21" kotobuki I picked up today from a reputable nursery here in Southern Cal. Set me back $70.

I'll take tree number 1 and consider the $285 difference well spent in the years upon years of work it would take in root work, trunk aging, branch structure, refinement, wasted wire, time invested, etc...

Sorry, but that's my take on the two trees presented and comparing the two - not an indicator on whether or not I would purchase either tree for the amounts specified...

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I'll take tree number 1 and consider the $285 difference well spent in the years upon years of work it would take in root work, trunk aging, branch structure, refinement, wasted wire, time invested, etc...

Well, I know this is just a hypothetical discussion for fun, but I don't think it would take years and years of work to turn tree #1 into something at par or better than tree #2 Check out this side by side comparison with both trees roughly to scale. However, since I'm not going to style it as an informal upright it doesn't really matter. I guess we can agree to disagree. If you'd prefer to have the tree on the right, I'd prefer to have SIX trees on the left

 

[Dale Cochoy]

I'll take tree number 1 and consider the $285 difference well spent in the years upon years of work it would take in root work, trunk aging, branch structure, refinement, wasted wire, time invested, etc...

Sorry, but that's my take on the two trees presented and comparing the two - not an indicator on whether or not I would purchase either tree for the amounts specified...

Well said Rich. I also feel there is no comparison in those two trees at all.
Your lanky pine will take a while BNut.
I hope you didn't spend $70 today to win an argument
but, you've still got $80 left to find that one 20x better .

Dwight,
Thats a shame you can't make it to San Antonio. I see it is a far drive there for you also.But, I guess EVERYTHING in Texas is.
Yes, I think a convention is a premier spot to find stock. Lots of vendors to choose from and they would be a bit "competitive". You should keep track of where each years LoneStar convention is in Texas each year.
Dale

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I also feel there is no comparison in those two trees at all.

I also don't feel they are the same. However I don't believe the value difference between the two is 6 to 1. Clearly there are people who disagree, just as there are people who thought that the original pine was worth $415.