What am I missing?

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
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Probably a species issue like Zuishio or one of the other ultra Dwarf varieties. Over all you are correct to question the tree; it is not much better than a first styling attempt on a nursery tree.
 

Graydon

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A kotobuki is one of the true short needled varieties of P. thunbergii. I do believe the tree is larger that we are thinking due to lack of scale. I have a kotobuki and in three years I have not seen much growth. Based on that I can say this tree has some years growing.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a great tree by any means. All sorts of issues and we really don't need to really tear it apart other than to say I would not spend that amount for that tree.

It started at $250 and has been bid up to $355 at the time of this post. Good for the seller and the buyer I suppose.
 

Bonsai Nut

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I do believe the tree is larger that we are thinking due to lack of scale.
It is 15" tall and 13" wide :) No taper, ugly little thing. Get out your grafting knife and get ready to stick it in the ground for a decade...
 

Bonsai Nut

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Sold for $415... for a 15" black pine right out of the nursery pot. For that much money people need to purchase a round-trip plane ticket to LA or SF and buy a $150 pine that is 20x nicer.
 

Dale Cochoy

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Hmmmm, "right out of a nursery pot".
Are you sure about this bNut?

I happened to click on the auction just out of curiosity and then the sellers info when I was sure I recognized the trade name. I think you might be off in your description. The dealer is a well-known artist/importer with a LOT of experience and knowledge and RESPECT in the bonsai field.
I'm sure this picture doesn't show it in it's best light or future possibilities/probabilities, which, is something that often effects the price of "stock" . Although, I don't consider this offering as just"stock".
My days of buying 15" trees for $450 are over , for sure, but I'd think it went for somewhat higher than it could have been purchased retail ( read: not eBay) at a convention. I'm not quite sure we can compare eBay sales prices to normal dealer retail prices, at least in the few times I've looked through eBay offerings I got that impression!:)
I've looked at several of this dealers trees at a convention last fall and they were "tasty" for the offered convention prices!
But, I WOULD like to see a " $150 pine that is 20X nicer"!


Dale
 
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Walter Pall

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This thing could easily be sold in Europe for 500 to 750 possibly up to 1000. Althought Japanese Black Pines are NOT popular here. Most folks don't own one and don't want one anyway contrary to America. But Kotobuki they would take. Don't forget 'Kotobuki' is a dwarf variety. A regular JBP would have needles which are five times longer.

To me it looks like good material and I would prefer it any time over the other pine with the long roots which was discussed recently.

I would not want it for myself but it could be sold easily.
 
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irene_b

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This thing could easily be sold in Europe for 500 to 750 possibly up to 1000. Althought Japanese Black Pines are NOT popular here. Most folks don't own one and don't want one anyway contrary to America. But Kotobuki they would take. Don't forget 'Kotobuki' is a dwarf variety. A regular JBP would have needles which are five times longer.

To me ilt looks like good material and I would prefer it any time over the other pine with the long roots which was discussed recently.

I would not want it for myself but it could be sold easily.


Is the available stock better or easier to purchase in America?
And why the large difference in the amounts?
Irene
 

Walter Pall

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Is the available stock better or easier to purchase in America?
And why the large difference in the amounts?
Irene
Irene, by and large we have way more good to very good stock besides average. And we have way more folks who care and are willing to pay more for better stock. Crap costs the same or less here and good stuff costs more.

Another factor in the difference is that the US$ isn't worth too much anymore. It has almost halved in the past years vs. the euro. This means that four years ago I would have told you that the tree costs US$ 250 to 350 and possibly 500 in Europe.

One also has to consider that it is illegal to import any black pine into Europe as it is to import into America. So it is the same situation on both sides. Only that there are lots of leaks here and one still can find imported black pines.
 
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irene_b

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Irene, by and lrege we have way more good to very good stock besides average. And we have way more folks who care and are willing to pay more for better stock. Crap costs the same or less here and good stuff costs more.

Another factor in the difference is that the US$ isn't worth too much anymore. It has almost halved in the past years vs. the euro. This means that four years ago I would have told you that the tree costs US$ 250 to 350 and possibly 500 in Europe.

One also has to consider that it is illegal to import any black pine into Europe as it is to import into America. So it is the same situation on both sides. Only that there are lots of leaks here and one still can find imported black pines.
Is America stock that bad?
And do you equate the size of America in that factor (underlined)?
Irene
 

Tachigi

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Its called pinus envy Irene ;)
 

Graydon

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Another factor in the difference is that the US$ isn't worth too much anymore. It has almost halved in the past years vs. the euro. This means that four years ago I would have told you that the tree costs US$ 250 to 350 and possibly 500 in Europe.
Ouch, that hurts - but the truth does sometimes hurt. You could not be more true in the value of the USD. I'm reminded of this when I look at my investments. Anyhow...

Thanks for your input Walter. I find your thoughts as to the purchasing habits or differences between Europe and the US interesting and true. Those of us wiling to pay more must be too picky or have not found the right source yet. As you know it's a big country and that can add to the difficulties of shopping for material and transporting it back home.
 

Bonsai Nut

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To me it looks like good material and I would prefer it any time over the other pine with the long roots which was discussed recently.
I respect your opinion. To me the issue is not the rare cultivar (I wish I had a kotobuki myself), rather it is the stage of development of the tree. $415 is a lot of money for a 15" tree at this stage of development (at least here in Southern California). Maybe it is just me - I just don't see it.
 

Bonsai Nut

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Hmmmm, "right out of a nursery pot".
Are you sure about this bNut?
No I'm not :) I was endulging in hyperbole :) Note that I am not knocking the seller, rather how much the tree is being sold for. I suppose you could say I was knocking the buyer :)

Strange thing is that after you mentioned it, I also checked into the seller. Reputation without question. However some of his recent trees on eBay do not appear to be at his level. I don't know - perhaps they were student trees or demo trees that he is unloading and are not his personal work, or perhaps they are trees he just wasn't happy with (we've all been there).

 

Dwight

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$150 pine that is 20x nicer.
I'm still waiting to see this tree. I've been rather bored lately ( weather ) and have been surfing the net and looking for trees. After many stops the price seems right in line with prices on the net. This confuses me a bit as I've bought a few trees on the web for much lower prices than those advertised and gotten much better trees. Are all prices somehow inflated when they hit " netland ". I almost feel that many dealers are posting " sucker " prices in the belief ( probably true ) that most people who buy on the web actually have no idea what they are supposed to be paying.
 

Tachigi

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Are all prices somehow inflated when they hit " netland ". I almost feel that many dealers are posting " sucker " prices in the belief ( probably true ) that most people who buy on the web actually have no idea what they are supposed to be paying.
Your statement probably rings some truth in it Dwight. However, some trees are minimally inflated due to the extra labor required to package them, ship them, and deal with the ever on going nightmare that we call the postal/shipping system. These are costs that a dealer wouldn't have if you walked through the door and snatched the tree up. When you see statements that say we only charge actual shipping costs, you know that no one works for free. Its built into the tree cost. When we sell a tree for X amount. We expose that the crating and handling costs that are built into the tree. This practice for the most part answers questions like yours. It is a practice that should be adopted by dealers in my opinion. This will give a better perspective if you are actually getting a good deal or there trolling for a sucker as you suggested.
 

Dale Cochoy

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When you see statements that say we only charge actual shipping costs, you know that no one works for free. Its built into the tree cost. When we sell a tree for X amount. We expose that the crating and handling costs that are built into the tree. This practice for the most part answers questions like yours. It is a practice that should be adopted by dealers in my opinion. This will give a better perspective if you are actually getting a good deal or there trolling for a sucker as you suggested.
Tom,
I don't ( or rarely) ship trees, but, I do ship pots, especially commissioned pots and I quote a price for the pot then pack and ship AT COST. The pot price is, or would be, my show sale price. If I pack and mail ( smaller pots) I charge only the mail fee, and if I take to UPS store ( larger pots) I charge ONLY what they charge. I tell folks this up front and tell them I'll let them know what costs were after it is gone so they can pay me. I make NO money on shipping pots.
The only FIXED shipping I have is with carving tools which is $5 or 5% whichever is higher. And, always pack those for free. Usually I cover the shipping/ins. no problem, but often it is mighty close! Out of country I charge 10% for tools.

Just FYI
Dale
 

Tachigi

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Hi Dale,
I think you read my post wrong. I didn't suggest that you or anyone else makes money on shipping. I don't make money either on shipping or packaging. I do make a point of saying that the cost of boxing that the 75 pound tree is part of the total sale. What I was implying is that internet sales have a inflated cost over what you might have to pay walking into a studio and choosing an item.
 
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I don't ( or rarely) ship trees.
Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo how does one become a member of the "rarely" club??? I've been beggin you to sell me a tree for three years now. :p :p :p

Don't worry... I havn't forgotten that if I just DRIVE there, I get to have one...

Luv yah.... ;)


Victrinia
 
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