What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will thrive?

[Glaucus]

Another consideration is the design. Growth will only add. Branches will get only larger. Ramification will only become finer. You cannot simply freeze a tree design. If you apply exactly the same pruning technique for over a decade, this will not maintain what you have currently. This must really be one of the hardest things to learn about bonsai.

 

[Kanorin]

I'm trying to think about how to contribute to this endeavor, but I'm getting a little hung up on the fact that there are certain times in a bonsai tree's life when I would consider super vigorous to be a great thing (growing the trunk, right before major pruning/bending/styling, healing a wound). Some of these growing conditions might include using a slightly bigger pot and adding a bit more fertilizer.

But if you used those same growing conditions above for most trees as you are trying to reduce internode size, reduce leaf size, and reduce root mass to fit it into a show pot....it's not the same goal. For these conditions you might want the tree to be vigorous, but not super vigorous if you catch my drift.

So...it's complicated.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I'm trying to think about how to contribute to this endeavor, but I'm getting a little hung up on the fact that there are certain times in a bonsai tree's life when I would consider super vigorous to be a great thing (growing the trunk, right before major pruning/bending/styling, healing a wound). Some of these growing conditions might include using a slightly bigger pot and adding a bit more fertilizer.

So...it's complicated.

Yep. I think I just found some old notes that can help folks tease these areas out. See below.

Another consideration is the design. Growth will only add. Branches will get only larger. Ramification will only become finer. You cannot simply freeze a tree design. If you apply exactly the same pruning technique for over a decade, this will not maintain what you have currently. This must really be one of the hardest things to learn about bonsai.

These are my graphic notes from Ryan’s Vortex concept that could be used simplify this component and sort some of these tricky items out. The stages in particular would add to the discussion. I’m pretty sure these are kosher to use.


cheers
DSD sends

 

[August44]

Some bonsai are fussy on the ph of soils , my azaleas thrive in kanuma as there roots take in sugars best at 5.5 ph which when watered turns the water slightly acidic , my pines I usually add about 30% kanuma as they like slightly acidic , saying that one of my poorly pines I planted in 100% akadama , that pine is now thriving and back budding lovely , watering takes three passes due to the compact akadama , I do believe that ph of soil and or water makes a massive difference to each tree .

I did not follow here what you are saying...what is the ph that pines like if I can ask?

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Yea I am still not happy with the term "sustainable" in the context of this discussion either because of the meaning it has in the ecological, and resource management sense.

In my world "sustainable" means managing a resource such that the population is not at risk of decline. Specifically, how many fish can be harvested such that the current level of fish in the population is maintained and not reduced. In that sense, humans are very much involved.

However, thinking about it, I think in this discussion, DSD means that "sustainable" should be in terms of keeping a tree healthy and able to undergo bonsai training and maintenance. Still a bit bothersome to me but I can't think of a better word to use

I mean, all this, to me, just seems like what we do every day. If we are going to add this idea of "sustainable conditions for bonsai" there should be something extra we are attempting to achieve that is absent "regular conditions for bonsai". If sustainable in the context we are talking about means "keeping a tree healthy and able to undergo bonsai training and maintenance" then there is nothing to talk about in my opinion. We try to do that every day already. We aren't trying to "keep a tree as unhealthy as possible and able to undergo bonsai training and maintenance" because what the hell would the point be of that?

Why add new verbiage and lexicon that doesn't need to applied?

 

[Cajunrider]

Bonfucius says "He who talks too much bonsai has no time to ramify his thoughts."

 

[ShadyStump]

I mean, all this, to me, just seems like what we do every day. If we are going to add this idea of "sustainable conditions for bonsai" there should be something extra we are attempting to achieve that is absent "regular conditions for bonsai". If sustainable in the context we are talking about means "keeping a tree healthy and able to undergo bonsai training and maintenance" then there is nothing to talk about in my opinion. We try to do that every day already. We aren't trying to "keep a tree as unhealthy as possible and able to undergo bonsai training and maintenance" because what the hell would the point be of that?

Why add new verbiage and lexicon that doesn't need to applied?

I've been having the same problem honestly. The discussion is great, but it does feel like we're essentially just running circles around the same topics we hit every day here. However I try to keep it going because it seems there's a certain something that @Deep Sea Diver is trying to get at that he's having trouble conveying.

In my eyes it's this: you know the moment when everything suddenly just seems to click together, all those pieces of knowledge finally falling into place, and it finally all makes intuitive sense?
As an educator, I'm perpetually looking for the key concepts that will help a student reach that point in the most efficient and enjoyable manner.
If I were to direct this effort myself, I'd say we're attempting to do this for bonsai. No personal preferences, or anecdotal evidence. Just the key factors that apply to every tree, under any conditions, in every stage of development, with a sort of map of how all these strings connect to each other.

That said...

Bonfucius says "He who talks too much bonsai has no time to ramify his thoughts."

Dude's got a point.

 

[ShadyStump]

So, ignoring @Cajunrider's excellent point...

Let's itemize the biological factors that all trees, regardless of species, have in common, and work our way out from there.

In all cases, growth hormones needed for root growth are produced in the foliage and work their way down to roots through the cambium.
Hormones needed for top growth are produced in the growing roots and work their way to the foliage through the sapwood.
There are no exceptions, just different species with different balances of how this works.

Similarly, there's a relationship between soil needs and transpiration, no exceptions, just different balances.

No need to memorize the different needs of different species as if their differences were of a magical, unintelligible nature. Just learn the important relationships they all have in common, and adjust as needed.

So along these lines, what are the other relationships were looking for?

 

[Paradox]

I mean, all this, to me, just seems like what we do every day. If we are going to add this idea of "sustainable conditions for bonsai" there should be something extra we are attempting to achieve that is absent "regular conditions for bonsai". If sustainable in the context we are talking about means "keeping a tree healthy and able to undergo bonsai training and maintenance" then there is nothing to talk about in my opinion. We try to do that every day already. We aren't trying to "keep a tree as unhealthy as possible and able to undergo bonsai training and maintenance" because what the hell would the point be of that?

Why add new verbiage and lexicon that doesn't need to applied?

Yea I'm also coming to the same conclusion and agree with @ShadyStump's comment in the post following yours.

We seem to be going around in circles and coming up with the answers that we already know.

I don't believe that keeping a bonsai in good condition for being a bonsai is some great mystery. For me it boils down to good horticulture practice, keep the tree healthy. Conduct bonsai practices of repotting, wiring, pruning at the appropriate times etc.

I also can't agree that a "sustainable bonsai" is a tree in a pot that can maintain itself with minimal human action. I just don't see how that is something that can be accomplished with a living thing that just isn't static.

 

[ShadyStump]

Whatever lunacy that prompted me to wake up an hour before my alarm apparently thinks it's solved our conundrum.

I think the more appropriate word we're looking for might be holistic.
We're looking to describe the holistic approach to bonsai; bonsai from the mindset of a tree with all it's interconnected systems, and how to sustain them in healthy balance pursuant to artistic development.

 

[Paradox]

Yea I'm also coming to the same conclusion and agree with @ShadyStump's comment in the post following yours.

We seem to be going around in circles and coming up with the answers that we already know.

I don't believe that keeping a bonsai in good condition for being a bonsai is some great mystery. For me it boils down to good horticulture practice, keep the tree healthy. Conduct bonsai practices of repotting, wiring, pruning at the appropriate times etc.

I also can't agree that a "sustainable bonsai" is a tree in a pot that can maintain itself with minimal human action. I just don't see how that is something that can be accomplished with a living thing that just isn't static.

Of course I say this after 10+ years of keeping trees in pots.

As a newbie, it was all very confusing but we tell new people all the time: get the horticulture down, how to keep a tree healthy and happy in a pot. Unhealthy trees don't make bonsai. Health is number one then you worry about what bonsai techniques to use to turn it into a good bonsai.

I agree @ShadyStump that "holistic" seems like a good word

 

[a1dusty]

I did not follow here what you are saying...what is the ph that pines like if I can ask?

I have two 5needle jwp and five Scot’s pine , I feed them all with bio gold slow release as I do all my trees and then azalea miracle grow when needed , pines like a slightly acidic soil so I use akadama and a little 30% kanuma to bring the ph down , the ph is important for azaleas as they do not soak up the sugars properly if the ph is above around 6 , kanuma keeps them at 5.5 ph , all that said , I have seen pines growing well in all kinds of soil so , if I need correcting on anything I have said , come on people an tell me lol ,

 

[a1dusty]

I can agree with the rest of your statement - I'm not sure "sustainable" is the right word - but this line I'll argue with.
The forestry industry is a good example. Sustainably harvesting trees doesn't mean that we just chop and walk. We harvest them strategically to reduce impact, encourage growth of new trees and even replant them, and overall seek to ensure that there will be more trees to harvest in the future while simultaneously reducing ecological impact.
None of this means minimal human involvement, but often quite the opposite.

Now, in that sort of context, "sustainable," isn't a word we'd use for bonsai.
I look more to the root word, sustain. Like sustain, sustenance, sustainable. In other words, how do we create an environment in which we're not constantly reacting to some issue or another, preventing the pendulum swing of one day healthy and another distressed?
In my mind we're looking for the balance, as you mentioned, between growing so strongly we can't possibly maintain the same styling in the tree, and constant life support which is essentially what many of us do with routine fertilizer regimens for example.

I may not be explaining the nuance in my head well.

Hi
Any tree kept in a pot is reliant on its keeper to get all its needs satisfied , it would never survive without , I do very much like the idea of allowing a tree to do its own thing with only the essentials needed delivered by myself , as with all bonsai though , if the tree is showing signs of stress you need to address straight away , sometime it might be over fertilising , under fertilising , compact soil not allowing roots to breath or soak water effectively , root bound , root rot , bugs and fungus etc etc , all these things can put a lot of people off starting a bonsai collection , if so start with an elm or ficus , when you have been keeping them a while then 90% comes naturally and thankfully if you have questions or concerns there are great forums like this to help you , so never be scared to ask , no one knows it all , certainly not me

 

[a1dusty]

Greetings Folks! I had to take a break from writing as I was busy on our bonsai.

That doesn't mean I haven't been keeping up with this thread. I have, with increasing interest at the great points folks are contributing to the thread. I have to say first and foremost I so appreciate your ideas and thoughts to support this thread.

This morning I had to laugh, sitting out back thinking, suddenly realizing that while not strictly trying to listen to my trees, thanks to @BobbyLane I sure was communing with nature while looking at two trees we'd, with the help of Todd Schlafer reworked two weeks ago.

These trees have been worked on by at least three generations of bonsai hobbyists and are just starting to reach their potential.

Mugo Pine Japanese White Pine

View attachment 452158 View attachment 452160

The tenuous continuity of these trees when I first received these suddenly as a noob and my experiences since in bonsai work is why I started this thread. It seems to me Bonsai is really all about knowing and refining the human factors so a hobbyist is ready, knowledgeable and able to properly work with trees. Actually might be a logical next step

But first, there is some unfinished business that it seems proper to address.

I think it was @ShadyStump who asked for a mission statement. (The tread started with:

What are the best ways to create sustainable conditions in which bonsai trees will survive. (I still think this is ok up to now, but see below and tell me what you think.)

So far in the thread we've explored what sustainable bonsai creating a working definition.

A couple folks in the past days have added some really nice ideas that likely ought to be included and/or discussed further on this thread. (Please forgive me for paraphrasing and if I miss any topic or person. Also so sorry for all the name checking )

I think @19Mateo83 and @Joe Dupre' mentioned matching a tree to the climate it was being worked in (Without additional support)

@a1dusty mentioned proper pH of Water and media

@Adam D mentioned techniques to achieve proper ramification and back budding.

Many folks @Orion_metalhead , @dbonsaiw , @LAS @Kadebe spoke about the need for methods of improving the health of the rhizosphere

@Mikecheck123 Discussed about what happens when something goes wrong... or, perhaps, being prepared for problems Human and environment.

@Cajunrider discussed sustainable conditions or limitations

@Glaucus and @Paradox discussed potential limitations for life in a pot. ( btw @Bonsai Nut did mention yamadori in the field as being a living sustainable example. Perhaps Dan's work is somewhat similar human influenced example?)

@ShadyStump - mentioned my intent was to use existing techniques and methods to answer this question. (I'd say mostly. Yet lots of things we will discuss can be controversial in the Wild West of Bonsai Nut. For example media, fertilization, chemical use, need for a healthy rhizosphere to name a couple)

In my own mind I've been thinking alot about "What's a sustainable technique?" timing, amounts, and how to nail down proper and environmentally responsible chemical use.

Finally, @August44 and other folks discussed the term "sustainability" and the possible need to modify the term. Also the definition of, "sustainable bonsai". (While I sought for a less "politically charged" word to replace sustainable to better define the concept, I'm falling short so far..... sorry)

Potential Next Steps

1. I'm going to do some work and see if I can fold some of the easiest topics into the existing work... (There are: ph of water and media, proper ramification and back budding, matching a tree to the climate (without support). So I'll work on folding these in to the existing framework.

2. Folks who desire might help by thinking about and discussing any of the above topics which remain (I'll jump in once I'm done) These are:

• Methods to improve the health of the rhizosphere in a bonsai system,
• Simple, specific ways to be realistically prepared for different human and environmental problems
• Specific things that limit or enhance or provide sustainable conditions for bonsai
• Limitations and ways to improve a bonsai's life in a pot...
• Timing issues for techniques and caring for the health of bonsai
• Proper and environmentally responsible chemical use
• Absolutely anything folks desire consistent with the threads intent

3.... and perhaps mull this question over.... it might help.

What are the methods and techniques which will keep a bonsai sustainable (robust and resilient for generations) while meeting the aesthetic demands of bonsai (any styling method.)?

Thanks again everyone!

cheers
DSD sends

I can say that if you want to ramify a jwp this is what I know and has worked for me , first jwp needles last three years so to be on safe side only cut back new growth for two years out of three .
Again though, media and light and water have to be right for that tree for anyone to get good results , sorry if I jumping in on this

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I mean, all this, to me, just seems like what we do every day. If we are going to add this idea of "sustainable conditions for bonsai" there should be something extra we are attempting to achieve that is absent "regular conditions for bonsai". If sustainable in the context we are talking about means "keeping a tree healthy and able to undergo bonsai training and maintenance" then there is nothing to talk about in my opinion.

This is fair and these are very good points. Not where I’m heading.

We try to do that every day already. We aren't trying to "keep a tree as unhealthyas possible and able to undergo bonsai training and maintenance" because what the hell would the point be of that?
Why add new verbiage and lexicon that doesn't need to applied?

Our discussion evolved in such a way that folks asked for a definition of a sustainable bonsai. Imho the respondents called for clarity….”new” verbiage to create an image of what this might look to get everyone on the same page.

Also, I felt doing so could have value to newer folks.

My intent is not to look for silver bullets. But it is to see if we could move the needle off the norm. To relook at bonsai as a discipline with an eye examining some bigger themes, with a goal towards possibly improving one’s processes.

What provoked me was an effort to move off endless ‘banner’ threads for example “What’s the best fertilizer?” “What’s the best media”. …. to seriously explore topics in discussions on as @ShadyStump mentions to more holistic topics… or just

So the thread started with an example of ‘Is this an example of a sustainable condition… and why do you think this is so?’ with a follow up question “How, in your opinion, does one create the conditions to get their trees to this level of sustainability?”

… a bit of a loaded question in the Wild West of BN, I admit, asking folks to perhaps think a different way?

Taking a holistic approach, as @ShadyStump said, is a good way of putting it.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Bosco Seitzer]

Goal? To put together a coherent, hopefully short, description of sustainable bonsai attributes

Its not the tree's attributes as much as it is the environment where the bonsai lives. Look at your local landscape and you can see that every year trees die, climate pests and disease have killed both landscape and bonsai that I have owned over the years. I remember maybe 5 years ago we had a very wet spring followed by multiple diseases that affected both landscape and bonsai. Some of our bonsai club members lost many of their best trees to disease including well established conifers. I was a newer member but it was pretty shocking that great trees die even when their steward is very capable and motivated.

I think the type of ultimate sustainability you seek is akin to what you have seen at bonsai museum where a lot of effort goes to comprehensive care. In my past experience I have lost bonsai to several unexpected circumstance like vermin, a home/garden move, and setting up new overwintering spaces. I think my list of sustainable characteristics is more or less the resources that Pacific Bonsai Museum, or the national garden.

A dedicated space for your trees to live that you won't have to change when your family gets bigger
Presence of horticultural experts able to identify and remedy any problems
A plan for triage (quarantine areas, or different locations for prescribed treatments
No drastic changes
Decisions made in a committee type manner opposed to spontaneously

 

[Cajunrider]

From my own experience my number 1 item for sustainable bonsai conditions is Disaster Plan & Disaster Recovery Plan.

Natural disasters: how do your bonsai fit in with protection of life and things?

Loss or absence of care takers (permanent/long/short terms)

Loss of facility: Place to keep, water, electricity, etc.

The majority of my own bonsai death are from those things above and not from my own stupidity in bonsai development and care.

 

[Leprous Garden]

This whole discussion is very confused about the relationship between basic biological and ecological considerations and the "culture" of bonsai. There's very little talk about what makes these things different. The basics of plant biology are what they are, but there's nothing "natural" about bonsai. The "bonsai system" in your pot isn't like a forest because you are making decisions about how it ought to be. A forest is a system that is (at least can be) sustainable because it isn't about "growing a big tree" or "growing a beautiful tree". Bonsai will always be other than this because we don't just put a plant in a pot and then let whatever wants to happen in it happen.

Beyond this, OPs intention comes from two places: 1) trying to understand exactly which specific conditions lead to the "optimal" performance of each plant and 2) generalizing into a set of attributes for all plants to determine "sustainable success". Based on his postings in other threads, I do take issue with some of the basis for this project. We know what a healthy plant looks like. Nobody knows what a perfect plant looks like. The specific needs and preferences of some plants can't overcome what is basic about keeping a potted plant healthy: light, water, media, nutrients. If your plant is growing, it's doing well. It does not matter if it's the "right" source of fertilizer or the "right" media. These plants will be "sustainable" so long as we keep them watered, fed and sunlit.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Nobody knows what a perfect plant looks like.

Sorry, this was the first thought that popped in mind at that statement.

 

[a1dusty]

Its not the tree's attributes as much as it is the environment where the bonsai lives. Look at your local landscape and you can see that every year trees die, climate pests and disease have killed both landscape and bonsai that I have owned over the years. I remember maybe 5 years ago we had a very wet spring followed by multiple diseases that affected both landscape and bonsai. Some of our bonsai club members lost many of their best trees to disease including well established conifers. I was a newer member but it was pretty shocking that great trees die even when their steward is very capable and motivated.

I think the type of ultimate sustainability you seek is akin to what you have seen at bonsai museum where a lot of effort goes to comprehensive care. In my past experience I have lost bonsai to several unexpected circumstance like vermin, a home/garden move, and setting up new overwintering spaces. I think my list of sustainable characteristics is more or less the resources that Pacific Bonsai Museum, or the national garden.
View attachment 452517
A dedicated space for your trees to live that you won't have to change when your family gets bigger
Presence of horticultural experts able to identify and remedy any problems
A plan for triage (quarantine areas, or different locations for prescribed treatments
No drastic changes
Decisions made in a committee type manner opposed to spontaneously

Very well said ,