What is a fair price for shohin trees

[Ron Dennis]

In reading raydomz's thread ( http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?8808-Best-nurseries-for-shohin-bonsai) I noticed a couple of comments about pricing being too high. Also, in the past there have been comments about other sellers prices being too high--particularly one seller I like and have been pleased with his trees.

My question is this--For those of us without much experience what would be a fair price we should expect to pay for some of the following shohin (or slightly larger than shohin) trees: (1) JBP, (2) JWP, (3) Firehorn, (4) Elms, and (5) azaleas?

 

[Bill S]

Yikes Ron any idea what this opens up?

From the threads I have seen on this the basic answer is let the buyer beware, and it depends on what the buyer and seller decide is fair. I have seen cheap trees that Smoke has bought, and I would have had to pay double, or fly out to Cal and hit some of the nurseries out there. Some I believe has to do w/ the initial buyer seller relationship, membership, long time customer, brother member in a club, etc. etc., was it imported, is it a sport variety, is it the recent fad, are you in Hawii. Tough question to answer, but first off is search around and find what you want, and toss the numbers. After looking around at choices, then it comes down to price, dealer reputation, distance maybe for shipping purposes, etc., not an easy thing to work out.

 

[Poink88]

There are too many factors to consider to get a fair price than the tree species. Trunk size, shape, taper, nebari, branch placement, etc. so it is a case to case basis. Add that appeals to me might not to you.

Sorry, there is just no quick answer to your question.

 

[Ron Dennis]

Thanks, Bill and Dario

I know the answer depends on many factors on any given tree. The reason for my question is in reading raydomz's thread several comments were made about NEBG and its prices being high and these comments were not on a specific tree. I have gone to NEBG's web site many times and have found their prices not to be out of line with other nurseries or sellers I am familiar. I know NEBG has an excellent reputation.

And since on other ocassions I have been told a seller's price was too high, I am trying to educate myself as to what is a bench mark to consider on prcing.

If we could (for my education), let's consider a specific tree. If you prefer not to answer here, please PM me.



This tree is described as follows: "This pine is styled with the traditional 'welcome' branch extending at the bottom of the tree. This is a feature you see on many white pines planted near homes in Japan. The branch extends from the tree at the entrance of the house. This grafted pre bonsai is in a 10 inch pot. trunk is 2 1/2 inches. 15 inches tall.
Price: $495.00"

With a member's discount this brings the price down to 445.. Forget shipping. What should one normally think an average price would be for this tree?

 

[iant]

Wow.... you'll get as many opinions with this question as you have responders.
I think that price is reasonable for this tree.
You have to be careful with the term 'fair.' A good price for an item is different if you're the buyer vs the seller! When I think of the term 'fair' I think of how much work went into an item. Let's take ceramics. I've made pieces before that took me a long time to make that I didn't want to sell that I priced high and they didn't sell. From the buyer's perspective they look at the piece and think about what they find in Crate and Barrel or Macy's and think... wow that's overpriced. But if you think of the work it goes into something handmade or a tree then I would argue that most homemade ceramics and most bonsai are underpriced. If someone has cared for a tree for years then I would say it's fair to ask a bit of money for it! But the true best definition of what is the right price for an item is that it's the price at which it sells.
Ian

 

[jkd2572]

I think that white pine is worth $500.

 

[Ron Dennis]

Wow.... you'll get as many opinions with this question as you have responders.
I think that price is reasonable for this tree.
You have to be careful with the term 'fair.' A good price for an item is different if you're the buyer vs the seller! When I think of the term 'fair' I think of how much work went into an item. Let's take ceramics. I've made pieces before that took me a long time to make that I didn't want to sell that I priced high and they didn't sell. From the buyer's perspective they look at the piece and think about what they find in Crate and Barrel or Macy's and think... wow that's overpriced. But if you think of the work it goes into something handmade or a tree then I would argue that most homemade ceramics and most bonsai are underpriced. If someone has cared for a tree for years then I would say it's fair to ask a bit of money for it! But the true best definition of what is the right price for an item is that it's the price at which it sells.
Ian

Agreed. I have been in sales and sales management my entire career. An old adage in sales states 'when the perceived value exceeds the asking price by so much as 1 penny, the customer will buy'. I have always found this to be true. Of course we each perceive things subjectively and differently.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I'll play.
Pros: decent base, no apparent flaws at the soil level.
Good taper, forgivable graft from the photo front.
Desirable size.
Seemingly healthy.
Good species for bonsai; long-lived, etc.

Cons: Grafted
Terrible scar on the front of the trunk that will persist for most of the rest of my life.
Awkward emergence of the primary branch, seemingly off the back.
Not sure about the balance branch on the lower left...Bad branch structure overall.
Heavy branch near the top, extending left requires a big decision..it stays and is always too big, or it goes and we have a bald spot.

So...weighing pros and cons, starting with a $500 price tag. I would expect it to have all of the pros, and not more than a couple of the cons. I'd critically remove $50-$75 per con...not that it's really quantifiable, but the value wouldn't exceed the asking price to me until it's under $200, and then it would be with the goal of "flipping it" for resale after I address some of the cons. Just based on this photo...

 

[davetree]

I agree with Brian. This pine has some problems for a grafted white pine. I don't think I would buy it at that price.

 

[jkd2572]

Man I wish I had your access to cheap material. So saying that I think also being in sales forever. It's whatever your willing to pay that makes you happy to have purchased it..... That's what something is worth. It's all about when the buyer and the seller leaves happy. If your not happy you should not buy it. If your happy with your purchase buy it. Simple sales. If they were not getting their price they would go out of business. So then that's what it is worth in the area they live in. Very simple.

 

[HotAction]

Let's not forget that size and Price are not directly correlated. Good trees are expensive.

 

[edprocoat]

This question would in reality have to be addressed in the manner of any art form. What the buyer deems worthy to pay is a fair price. I bet there were those, and maybe still are those that would not think Piccaso's epic painting Guernica would be worth the price of the canvas it was painted upon as it did not suit their tastes, yet we know the value of that piece. In fact many of the early masters were the epitome of the starving artist as their work did not receive the critical acclaim until after their death. As in any art , one mans treasure is another mans trash.

ed

 

[Vance Wood]

I know this seems simplistic but it is the truth none the less. My Father once told me that a thing is really only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. You may think something is over priced and someone else my think the price is fair. We are after all talking about a commodity that is valued as much for its artistic structure as it is for its species, size, and years. Just remember a POS that is one-hundred-years old is still a POS. Conversely a Ten-year old tree that is a masterpiece is worth a lot more than the POS. Value and bonsai is for the most part subjective and in asking about this you are looking for an objective answer that is consistent across the board.

Take it from someone who sells trees at shows: I can start with a group of trees where the raw material is the same, obtained from the same source at the same time, had the same initial training over the same time span but; I can get significantly more for some and significantly less for others,--- and all for the same reason; what the tree looks like. Not meaning to be offensive or condescending but if your bonsai savy has not grown to the point where you can identify a good bonsai, or raw material that has potential, you should get assistance from one who does and whose opinion you can trust. Unless I am interested only in basic raw material I never buy from a catalog, I generally wont buy a tree I can't look at.

 

[Thomas J.]

I just happened to stumble upon this thread and decided I'll put my 2 cents in if anybody cares.

A lot has to do with not only what your seeing at the moment but what your ability is to do with it once you have it. I paid a pretty penny for this tree and as you can see it wasn't a spectacular looking tree at purchase around Aug. of 2008.(middle pic, I'm not sure why these things don't post in the order I upload them in ).

But I felt it had potential with that nice looking trunk and nebari. The first pic shows the tree probably about a year later and the 3rd was taken this past April before decandeling. Right now the trees needles are so small and tight that it amazes me every time I look at it.

I feel that the money I've invested and the fun I had working this tree to it's potential was well worth it.

Spending good money on a tree is always a good idea as far as i'm concerned, but that should also be limited to the amount of experience one has in bringing out it's potential and for what it's worth, even being able to keep it alive and healthy.

 

[Attila Soos]

I feel that the money I've invested and the fun I had working this tree to it's potential was well worth it.

If there is such a thing that a perfect tree, this is it. A little gem, and worth a good chunk of money, no question about it.

You just need to extend that first branch on the left, a little bit...or even better: shorten the crown above it, all the way to the apex. The first option is easier, the second one takes a little more work and time. Well, nothing is perfect, after all.

 

[bonsaibp]

Everything said so far is valid. It really does come dowm to what an individual is willing to pay. If you know your stuff and think before you buy you'll find some real gems at reasonable(to you) prices, if not you're likely to find junk at not so reasonable prices. No matter how much or little you spent on a tree there will be someone that thinks it's a deal and someone else that thinks it's a ripoff that's why it's so important to learn how to pick good bonsai stock.If the price paid makes you happy that's all that counts anyhow. Since no one gave you a figure to answer your question I will. Taking all the posible variables into consideration there would be a range in price not just a single price. Realistically that range would be from $10-$100,000. It may sound flip but thats what happens when there are so many variables.

 

[Ron Dennis]

Spending good money on a tree is always a good idea as far as i'm concerned, but that should also be limited to the amount of experience one has in bringing out it's potential and for what it's worth, even being able to keep it alive and healthy.

Thank you and agreed.

My question stemmed from the fact that there is such a diverenge of opinion on price. If one sees a tree which they like, price at a point one thinks the tree is worth and comparable trees are being priced at similar pricing by other retailers, that would appear to me to be the going market price.

What BVF said about deductding 50-75 per con makes sense.

BTW, your tree is really nice.

 

[jk_lewis]

i think that white pine is worth $500.

no.. . . .. . .

 

[Ron Dennis]

Everything said so far is valid. It really does come dowm to what an individual is willing to pay. If you know your stuff and think before you buy you'll find some real gems at reasonable(to you) prices, if not you're likely to find junk at not so reasonable prices. No matter how much or little you spent on a tree there will be someone that thinks it's a deal and someone else that thinks it's a ripoff that's why it's so important to learn how to pick good bonsai stock.If the price paid makes you happy that's all that counts anyhow. Since no one gave you a figure to answer your question I will. Taking all the posible variables into consideration there would be a range in price not just a single price. Realistically that range would be from $10-$100,000. It may sound flip but thats what happens when there are so many variables.

Let's take price out of the equation. I know you have your own nursery and are very experienced while I am 3 years into bonsai; however, I have always had a very nice landscape and have been considered to be the better one in the neighborhood since I was 14-15 and have knowledge of shrubs and trees. Since price can be so spread out, when you are selecting a tree for your personal bonsai collection--or better yet--when you are advising your customers--what do you tell them to look for in selecting a tree. Let's say a JM.

I am not trying to be obtuse but rather I am really trying to learn.

 

[rockm]

Boils down to the bottom third of the trunk on any tree. That inch to eight inches of the tree is basically what you're paying for. If it looks like a "real" tree there--substantial root base, good bark, the other stuff -- good ramification, substantial branching, etc.--is gravy. The other stuff can add onto the price, but can be developed on its own in a few years...