What is being doing improperly when the wire stops making contact with the branch?

electraus

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Hi everyone,

I’ve been directing a decent amount of the time I spend on practicing proper bonsai styling techniques on wiring since last spring. In the fall, I got over my fear of using copper wire and was even able to successfully put a fairly big bend on a ~1/2” nursery juniper trunk. A couple of weeks ago, I bent an almost 1” juniper trunk into a full cascade and was fairly successful but I ran into a problem I haven’t encountered in a while— the wire separating from the trunk/branch when changing horizontal horizontal directionality.

This used to be a major problem for me at joints where I had to change the horizontal directionality of the coil, in this case it was when the trunk split into the primary branch that would become the cascade and the one that would become the apex. It stopped happening completely once I became very comfortable with aluminum wire but I was never able to determine what exactly I was doing wrong.

I also still have a very hard time making full 360* twists on juniper branches that are thicker than say 1/4” to 5/8” in diameter. What exactly is it that you’re doing incorrectly if the wire separates from the branch you’re trying to bend or twist ?
 

yashu

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You need to wrap the wire the same direction you intend to bend or twist. This makes the wire tighten as you make the bend/twist. Thusly the wire will loosen if you bend/twist opposite the direction the wire is wound.
 

yashu

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This video is pretty in depth on the subject

 

Deep Sea Diver

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Sounds like the twist of the branch is not in the same direction as the wrap of the wire. Look down the wire when you are bending a branch. Bends need to be made in such a way as the wire tightens, thus holding a branch in place.

For intermediate hobbyists, this miscue usually comes not planning ones bends before laying on the wire. Then laying on the wire in a way that looks perfectly good, but isn’t aligned with the way you bend the branch. So when the branch is bent, the wire separates from the branch at the bend.

cheers
DSD sends
 

Paradox

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Depending on the direction of the twist, there is a right way and a wrong way to wind the wire.
If you do it in the wrong way, it will give you gaps when you bend the branch

*EDIT* someone above just answered the question before I could articulate it properly
 

leatherback

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On the one hand I agree with this concept of coiling in the direction of the direction of the bend.
However..

In my world, I do not just bend branches in one direction. So I am wondering.. Now what!?
It is a question I have had in the back of my mind for a long time, as to me the need to have multiple direction changes in a branch combined with coiling in the right direction seem mutually excluding.

I realize this steps beyond the direct question at hand, but as the problem has been identified, and solutions have been posted, maybe this is an interesting wider question to explore?
 
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As leatherback mentioned above, you often bend in multiple directions, so in those instances you'll occasioinally lose contact between the wire and the branch. Not really a big deal if it stays where you want it, which is the point of wiring. If it doesn't stay, maybe a guy wire or a second, or thicker wire would be appropriate.
 

Potawatomi13

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Just suggesting: Closely observe Ryan Neil or other professional wire Yamadori and copy technique. Seems these never leave air gaps in wiring🤔. Perhaps bending also planned to never bend in wire loosening direction beforehand.
 

SeanS

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On the one hand I agree with this concept of coiling in the direction of the direction of the bend.
However..

In my world, I do not just bend branches in one direction. So I am wondering.. Now what!?
It is a question I have had in the back of my mind for a long time, as to me the need to have multiple direction changes in a branch combined with coiling in the right direction seem mutually excluding.

I realize this steps beyond the direct question at hand, but as the problem has been identified, and solutions have been posted, maybe this is an interesting wider question to explore?
One option I use is to only focus on one bend/twist at a time, making sure the next bud (on deciduous at least) is in a good spot to grow the next section of a branch that can then be bent/twisted the other way when it eventually grows. But I’m growing many smaller trees so am often only building branches 1 to 2 internodes at a time
 

yashu

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On the one hand I agree with this concept of coiling in the direction of the direction of the bend.
However..

In my world, I do not just bend branches in one direction. So I am wondering.. Now what!?
It is a question I have had in the back of my mind for a long time, as to me the need to have multiple direction changes in a branch combined with coiling in the right direction seem mutually excluding.

I realize this steps beyond the direct question at hand, but as the problem has been identified, and solutions have been posted, maybe this is an interesting wider question to explore?
The way I deal with this is to ensure my initial (usually the most “dramatic” for lack of another term) bend, the one closest to the trunk, and the wire wrap are coordinated as previously described. After that, the wire on any subsequent bends can be held closer to the branch by ensuring that the wire lays on the outside of the bend, if that makes any sense. This has to be achieved by spacing your wraps or adjusting the angle of the wrap (45° +or- in most cases) The wire becomes somewhat of a backbone to the bend (which performs double duty by reinforcing the branch against breakage and holding the bend tightly in place.

@leatherback im probably over-explaining something you already know but this is more for OP. Heck, I don’t even know if I explained that in any understandable fashion😅
 

leatherback

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Heck, I don’t even know if I explained that in any understandable fashion😅
Explaining something in clear words forces you to really go deep and know it well yourself. As such, taking the time to really explain clerly helps your own understanding. 👍
 

Gabler

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It’s my impression, and this is just a hunch, that we put way too much emphasis on “good” wiring technique. Bonsai came to the West through Japan, where the culture reveres precision and disciplined technique. Overall, those are great values to hold, but wiring bonsai is a means to an end. Unless the tree is going to be exhibited with wire applied, sloppy wiring that gets the job done is still good wiring. For me, the main reason to seek to improve my wiring is to increase the beauty of the trees while still in training. That’s not an issue for a tree with long sacrifice branches, recent heavy chops, or otherwise a tree still in early development. It should be ugly. It’s supposed to be ugly. I see no reason to put lipstick on a pig, especially since tighter wire is quicker to bite into the bark.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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. It’s a really good question. Here’s my thoughts.

So two elements, one thought and an opinion

First off it’s the major bend I am most concerned with ensuring the wraps are aligned. But the idea is to keep the tightening going as needed.

Taken throughout a long run for a primary structural wire this could result in a twist in foliage down the line. But often the bend is relatively minor down the line, so the off bend separation isn’t a big deal.

The next element and perhaps most important is to guage up so no matter which side one is bending the wire will hold for every bend.

As a final thought, in actual practice a little separation at certain bends is something we actually create so a splice can be made in that area.

Wiring done well not only looks better, it’s less intrusive on the tree when laid properly both when laying the wire on and when removing the wire, it holds better with minimal cost.

Cheers
DSD sends
 

yashu

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Taken throughout a long run for a primary structural wire this could result in a twist in foliage down the line. But often the bend is relatively minor down the line, so the off bend separation isn’t a big deal.

This right here has been my downfall a few times. I’ll end up with an unintended twist in the foliage and then trying to back it off I’ll end up with gaps… this is exponentially worse when using copper and the wire begins to work harden from being manipulated too much. Every time I wire I tend to notice another nuance that I didn’t previously and that’s a big motivator for doing it carefully and neatly.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Yep. Without question.

Where we volunteer wiring has to be effective, attractive and not damage the tree while putting wire on or removing it, while holding as long as possible (conifers etc).

One is trained to be efficient, to use the least amount of wire to meet these goals.

At home, we practice doing this on every tree. Once learned, we find using these techniques shorten the time needed on a job.

This choice makes a big difference when wiring a number of smaller trees as well as a larger tree. (If one doesn’t believe this, come on over as I’ve dozens of azaleas and whips as well as other trees you can time yourself on 😉)

Other folks may not care nor agree about these points and that’s definitely ok with me. In fact, I worked with one professional in a workshop where they always used aluminum and frequently doubled the wire back on itself to make it hold, stating that if it held all was good. Mostly it did hold, but took twice as long and cost plenty in the long run.

As always, your tree, your choice.😎

Cheers
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Deep Sea Diver

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There are always exceptions, even on museum trees…

(except these are carefully hidden - don’t tell anyone! 🤣)

Best
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