What's it like to attend an Intensive program?
- Thread starter Adair M
- Start date
watchndsky
Chumono
one thing has been bugging me and i havent figured it out - why are people leaving their trees there?
barrosinc
Masterpiece
because they have money to give away...
markyscott
Imperial Masterpiece
...or, so they can have something of their own to work on at the intensive without having to haul trees back and forth across the country.
Scott
Why leave trees at Boon's?
I'm going to be going back there every 3 or 4 months for the next couple years as I complete the Intensive program. I'll probably continue to go, even after I "Graduate". I have focused on JBP in my time there, there's much more to learn. So, by buying a tree from Boon, and leaving it there, working on it while I'm there, HEY! At least I'm improving my own tree, and not Boon's!
My JBP I purchased from Boon that I hope to show in Boon's show in January needs to stay in California at least until then. It's hard to get trees into California. They're pretty strict about bringing in trees. It can be done, but it's a hassle.
And, yeah, I want to show the tree in Boon's show in January. After that, I may bring it home. We'll see.
Do I miss it when I'm not there? For sure! Am I happy to see it when I get there? For sure! I can just see it jumping up and licking my face! (oh, wait... sorry, that's Boon's dogs!)
I'm going to be going back there every 3 or 4 months for the next couple years as I complete the Intensive program. I'll probably continue to go, even after I "Graduate". I have focused on JBP in my time there, there's much more to learn. So, by buying a tree from Boon, and leaving it there, working on it while I'm there, HEY! At least I'm improving my own tree, and not Boon's!
My JBP I purchased from Boon that I hope to show in Boon's show in January needs to stay in California at least until then. It's hard to get trees into California. They're pretty strict about bringing in trees. It can be done, but it's a hassle.
And, yeah, I want to show the tree in Boon's show in January. After that, I may bring it home. We'll see.
Do I miss it when I'm not there? For sure! Am I happy to see it when I get there? For sure! I can just see it jumping up and licking my face! (oh, wait... sorry, that's Boon's dogs!)
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
My favorite thread in a long while. Great discussion. Thanks guys, keep it coming! 
Si Nguyen
Omono
Cool thread! Nice reading!
I want to comment a little bit on the Boon vs. Naka techniques on bud selecting.
Before I was doing bonsai, I studied a little bit of Japanese gardening from an old Japanese gardener. And indeed, they do trim their branches the way Naka showed it. It makes sense for big healthy garden trees. One does not have to wire all the small branches. Save time and money. The downward-facing buds are strong enough to grow upward in a curve, and as you keep selecting only the downward-facing buds, the foliage pads will get a real nice elegant look. See Figure #1.
I also learned about "Boon's" method later from another old teacher, before I heard of Boon. This method makes sense on most bonsai trees in pots, because the trees are weaker ( weaker than the big garden trees). The Upward-facing buds are usually stronger than the downward-facing buds. But now one has to wire every branch downward for at least one season before cutting it back to the next upward-bud and wiring it down again. This method is much more labor intensive. I find that this is good for bald cypress (and Montezuma cypress and Dawn redwood) and other weeping style trees like Chinese tamarix. On trees that drop branches easily, like willows and azaleas,etc.., this method is safer, but don't wire too early if the tree is weak. This method is good for maples and Hinoki's cypress too. So in general, for trees in pots, the Boon's method is probably safer and better to use. But the branch style is different than the Naka's method. Naka styled his trees this way too sometime, but he may not have described it in his books. I think he preferred his described method. They don't use much branch wiring in the past when he wrote his books. See Figure #2.
Again, on weak trees in pots, the downward-facing buds will not be strong enough to curve itself upward. They would just keep growing downward.
A lot of times, sideway-facing buds are better, but that's another day.
Thanks, and keep up the discussion!
I want to comment a little bit on the Boon vs. Naka techniques on bud selecting.
Before I was doing bonsai, I studied a little bit of Japanese gardening from an old Japanese gardener. And indeed, they do trim their branches the way Naka showed it. It makes sense for big healthy garden trees. One does not have to wire all the small branches. Save time and money. The downward-facing buds are strong enough to grow upward in a curve, and as you keep selecting only the downward-facing buds, the foliage pads will get a real nice elegant look. See Figure #1.
I also learned about "Boon's" method later from another old teacher, before I heard of Boon. This method makes sense on most bonsai trees in pots, because the trees are weaker ( weaker than the big garden trees). The Upward-facing buds are usually stronger than the downward-facing buds. But now one has to wire every branch downward for at least one season before cutting it back to the next upward-bud and wiring it down again. This method is much more labor intensive. I find that this is good for bald cypress (and Montezuma cypress and Dawn redwood) and other weeping style trees like Chinese tamarix. On trees that drop branches easily, like willows and azaleas,etc.., this method is safer, but don't wire too early if the tree is weak. This method is good for maples and Hinoki's cypress too. So in general, for trees in pots, the Boon's method is probably safer and better to use. But the branch style is different than the Naka's method. Naka styled his trees this way too sometime, but he may not have described it in his books. I think he preferred his described method. They don't use much branch wiring in the past when he wrote his books. See Figure #2.
Again, on weak trees in pots, the downward-facing buds will not be strong enough to curve itself upward. They would just keep growing downward.
A lot of times, sideway-facing buds are better, but that's another day.
Thanks, and keep up the discussion!
Attachments
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Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
There are great tidbits here for sure, from many voices. Everything I know of Boon is that he is as kind as they come. I also don't begrudge him his fantastic prices, he is a businessman after all.
I do feel a certain lack with a lot of these kinds of situations. The absence of originality in the work. Do this one thing every time to this species and get this result. Consistency is a thing, but I couldn't tell you who worked out one triangle on a tree any more from another person who worked out a triangle on a tree. Seeing spectacular foliage that has no relationship to the tree or it's kami is, for me, a lesser attainment. Even as doubtlessly, my love of bringing out the nature of the tree and it's story, is a lesser attainment for the students of Boon. Though what they accomplish is certainly not lacking in it's own kind of beauty. Perfect reproduction is after all the mark of mastery in that tradition, as I understand it.
I have had something of an American apprenticeship, or at least so I have been told. Years of working on great trees, being repaid by the teacher with his generosity in various ways for just showing up. Including being given lovely yamadori, bonsai, and even tools as gifts. Though the sweetest of the gifts was being taken to the secret places where the wild ones grow. Costing me nothing but loyalty and time... the sweat of my brow. But in all those years... with all the teaching, never has the teacher insisted on a one-way method. He seeks to train eagles who can fly on their own... sometimes he does that by seating you in a catapult and launching you into things you think you have no business doing. He teaches courage to do a thing... regardless of whether he agrees with a result or not.
I wish express my own gratitude to Adair for offering up so much of his experience and learning. This is a way to accomplish a specific set of intentions, and very valuable from that perspective. While this is is far from a be all end all, it is the cutting edge of what they seek. That many of us seek many different paths doesn't diminish its value, but it should also be seen in the light of that context.
Kindly,
Victrinia
I do feel a certain lack with a lot of these kinds of situations. The absence of originality in the work. Do this one thing every time to this species and get this result. Consistency is a thing, but I couldn't tell you who worked out one triangle on a tree any more from another person who worked out a triangle on a tree. Seeing spectacular foliage that has no relationship to the tree or it's kami is, for me, a lesser attainment. Even as doubtlessly, my love of bringing out the nature of the tree and it's story, is a lesser attainment for the students of Boon. Though what they accomplish is certainly not lacking in it's own kind of beauty. Perfect reproduction is after all the mark of mastery in that tradition, as I understand it.
I have had something of an American apprenticeship, or at least so I have been told. Years of working on great trees, being repaid by the teacher with his generosity in various ways for just showing up. Including being given lovely yamadori, bonsai, and even tools as gifts. Though the sweetest of the gifts was being taken to the secret places where the wild ones grow. Costing me nothing but loyalty and time... the sweat of my brow. But in all those years... with all the teaching, never has the teacher insisted on a one-way method. He seeks to train eagles who can fly on their own... sometimes he does that by seating you in a catapult and launching you into things you think you have no business doing. He teaches courage to do a thing... regardless of whether he agrees with a result or not.
I wish express my own gratitude to Adair for offering up so much of his experience and learning. This is a way to accomplish a specific set of intentions, and very valuable from that perspective. While this is is far from a be all end all, it is the cutting edge of what they seek. That many of us seek many different paths doesn't diminish its value, but it should also be seen in the light of that context.
Kindly,
Victrinia
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jeanluc83
Omono
Adair, I have thought of going to an intensive but it will be out of my price range for quite a while. I have enjoyed reading about your experiences.
Spoken like a true SODR (Student of Dan Robinson). I don’t say that despairingly only out of jealousy.
I find myself drawn to more naturalistic style mostly because yamadori stirs something within me. Most collected trees do not lend themselves to traditional styling.
I also appreciate a well composed traditional tree. They don’t move me the same way but speak of the time, dedication and skill in their creation.
I guess I'm just somewhere in between.
Spoken like a true SODR (Student of Dan Robinson). I don’t say that despairingly only out of jealousy.
I find myself drawn to more naturalistic style mostly because yamadori stirs something within me. Most collected trees do not lend themselves to traditional styling.
I also appreciate a well composed traditional tree. They don’t move me the same way but speak of the time, dedication and skill in their creation.
I guess I'm just somewhere in between.
Thank you for your comments, Vic, I was wondering when you might pop in here...
Boon is very artistic. I am not. His yamadori and junipers are beyond fantastic. I am overwhelmed by them.
You see, I have a bit of Asberger's syndrome. Not a lot, I'm no Sheldon Cooper, I can recognize sarcasm. At least some of the time! LOL!!!
But the "art" of bonsai is the most difficult part for me. I like having rules to live by. Following the rules makes the decision process easier. In the past, I'd get stymied by a tree: Do I do this, or THAT? This or THAT? To the point I'd do neither! Boon's teaching simplifies the rules, gives us the insight as to when it's ok to break the rules, the tools to apply the rules, etc.
Recently, Boon has been wearing a T-shirt that says, "Bonsai... Obedience training for trees"!
Gotta love it.
I've followed your work, and it falls more on the side of the Walter Pall naturalistic spectrum. That's fine. You do excellent work. I chose Boon as a mentor because he does the Classical Japanese bonsai. There's room for both styles.
And you know, "styles" change with the times. When Kimura burst onto the Japanese bonsai scene, many of the established bonsai masters hated his work. He persevered, and now he is regarded as one of the best, if not THE best bonsai artist that has ever lived.
Will the Japanese ever embrace Pall's naturalistic style? Unlikely, but possible. The Japanese are sticklers for detail. I think they see his trees as unrefined. (That's a wild guess on my part.)
Has my eye for the "art" of bonsai improved by going to Boon's? Absolutely. Going to his garden allows me to see the best trees I have ever seen. I'm just an ordinary guy who lives in a small town. I don't get to go to Japan and see the Kokufu-ten. Boon's garden is about as close as I'll ever get, and I savor every minute I'm there.
Boon is very artistic. I am not. His yamadori and junipers are beyond fantastic. I am overwhelmed by them.
You see, I have a bit of Asberger's syndrome. Not a lot, I'm no Sheldon Cooper, I can recognize sarcasm. At least some of the time! LOL!!!
But the "art" of bonsai is the most difficult part for me. I like having rules to live by. Following the rules makes the decision process easier. In the past, I'd get stymied by a tree: Do I do this, or THAT? This or THAT? To the point I'd do neither! Boon's teaching simplifies the rules, gives us the insight as to when it's ok to break the rules, the tools to apply the rules, etc.
Recently, Boon has been wearing a T-shirt that says, "Bonsai... Obedience training for trees"!
Gotta love it.
I've followed your work, and it falls more on the side of the Walter Pall naturalistic spectrum. That's fine. You do excellent work. I chose Boon as a mentor because he does the Classical Japanese bonsai. There's room for both styles.
And you know, "styles" change with the times. When Kimura burst onto the Japanese bonsai scene, many of the established bonsai masters hated his work. He persevered, and now he is regarded as one of the best, if not THE best bonsai artist that has ever lived.
Will the Japanese ever embrace Pall's naturalistic style? Unlikely, but possible. The Japanese are sticklers for detail. I think they see his trees as unrefined. (That's a wild guess on my part.)
Has my eye for the "art" of bonsai improved by going to Boon's? Absolutely. Going to his garden allows me to see the best trees I have ever seen. I'm just an ordinary guy who lives in a small town. I don't get to go to Japan and see the Kokufu-ten. Boon's garden is about as close as I'll ever get, and I savor every minute I'm there.
Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
As am I Josef..... as am I.
I'm a fan of triangles... I'm just not a fan of losing sight of the structure.
V
I'm a fan of triangles... I'm just not a fan of losing sight of the structure.
V
Ok, back to the Intensives:
SUMMER!
This is JBP decandling season. Boon teaches several methods, he primarily uses one. Sometimes the other, sometimes a mixture of both. Huh? First, a little background:
Decandling. This is the breakthrough that make JBP the best subjects for bonsai. I don't want to start a fight over that statement, just take it to be my opinion. But, I'm not alone with that opinion.
What is it? Decandling, is actually a misnomer, it should really be called "Spring growth removal" because the growth no longer looks like a candle. But, in bonsai circles, the term "decandling" is the accepted term for the process. We cut off all the Spring growth the tree has produced, forcing the tree to send out a second set of shoots from the base of the decapitated spring candle. The buds there are called "adventitious" buds. In about 3 weeks after the decandling, they'll emerge and start to grow new shoots. These shoots will be shorter in length, have no or very little "neck", and will have shorter needles. All these characteristics are good. Also, it is usually the case that where we once had a single Spring candle, after decandling that Spring candle, there will appear multiple summer buds replacing a single spring bud. This builds ramification.
Way back in this thread, I discussed "bud selection", remember? Well, decandling is the technique that produced the multiple buds to select from. So, decandling allows us to substitute multiple weaker, shorter, and shorter needled buds where we used to have a single strong, long, long necked, and long needled shoot. The primary reason the novice is turned off by JBP are the long needles. How can a tree with 4 inch to 6 inch long needles ever going to look good? Decandling it allows the bonsai artist to control the needle length, and much more.
More later...
SUMMER!
This is JBP decandling season. Boon teaches several methods, he primarily uses one. Sometimes the other, sometimes a mixture of both. Huh? First, a little background:
Decandling. This is the breakthrough that make JBP the best subjects for bonsai. I don't want to start a fight over that statement, just take it to be my opinion. But, I'm not alone with that opinion.
What is it? Decandling, is actually a misnomer, it should really be called "Spring growth removal" because the growth no longer looks like a candle. But, in bonsai circles, the term "decandling" is the accepted term for the process. We cut off all the Spring growth the tree has produced, forcing the tree to send out a second set of shoots from the base of the decapitated spring candle. The buds there are called "adventitious" buds. In about 3 weeks after the decandling, they'll emerge and start to grow new shoots. These shoots will be shorter in length, have no or very little "neck", and will have shorter needles. All these characteristics are good. Also, it is usually the case that where we once had a single Spring candle, after decandling that Spring candle, there will appear multiple summer buds replacing a single spring bud. This builds ramification.
Way back in this thread, I discussed "bud selection", remember? Well, decandling is the technique that produced the multiple buds to select from. So, decandling allows us to substitute multiple weaker, shorter, and shorter needled buds where we used to have a single strong, long, long necked, and long needled shoot. The primary reason the novice is turned off by JBP are the long needles. How can a tree with 4 inch to 6 inch long needles ever going to look good? Decandling it allows the bonsai artist to control the needle length, and much more.
More later...
Victrinia Ridgeway
Omono
Adair....
I agree wholeheartedly that there is room in the art for all of our expressions. There is no one size fits all... what speaks to me is different than what speaks to someone else... and it should be that way... otherwise we'd only need Wal-Mart to supply all our needs in mass with no variety whatsoever. I deeply respect and appreciate traditional styles... they influence me many times to add a layer of refinement to nature without taking it somewhere else I don't intend.
I think what sometimes creates an air of elitism is that the enthusiasm in some of your other brothers and sisters of Boon has caused some to very vocally imply an inferior nature to anything outside what's being learned in Boon's Garden. There is nothing inferior about what happens in Boon's Garden... but neither is there anything inferior to what happens in the gardens of other dedicated practitioners. Differences there may be... but there is value and passion in it all. Else why would be bother?
Not unlike yourself I teach in my own backyard garden, and charge what I was charged... and give what I was given. It's how we pass on the wealth that has been imparted to us. Except for the secret places the wild ones grow... that is not mine to give yet, and so I never share it.
I think knowing that you have a touch of Asberger's syndrome might have been a good caveat in the beginning... it might have prevented some of the misunderstandings that were taken places you did not intend.
Just saying..... lol
Kindest respect and amusement,
Victrinia
I agree wholeheartedly that there is room in the art for all of our expressions. There is no one size fits all... what speaks to me is different than what speaks to someone else... and it should be that way... otherwise we'd only need Wal-Mart to supply all our needs in mass with no variety whatsoever. I deeply respect and appreciate traditional styles... they influence me many times to add a layer of refinement to nature without taking it somewhere else I don't intend.
I think what sometimes creates an air of elitism is that the enthusiasm in some of your other brothers and sisters of Boon has caused some to very vocally imply an inferior nature to anything outside what's being learned in Boon's Garden. There is nothing inferior about what happens in Boon's Garden... but neither is there anything inferior to what happens in the gardens of other dedicated practitioners. Differences there may be... but there is value and passion in it all. Else why would be bother?
Not unlike yourself I teach in my own backyard garden, and charge what I was charged... and give what I was given. It's how we pass on the wealth that has been imparted to us. Except for the secret places the wild ones grow... that is not mine to give yet, and so I never share it.
I think knowing that you have a touch of Asberger's syndrome might have been a good caveat in the beginning... it might have prevented some of the misunderstandings that were taken places you did not intend.
Just saying..... lolKindest respect and amusement,
Victrinia
Back to decandling...
Why does it work? There's a hormone in the growing tips called auxin that suppresses the growth of the adventitious buds. When we remove the candle, we remove the auxin, so the adventitious buds are no longer suppressed, so they can now grow.
The horticulturalists among us can go into a great deal more detail about this, but I can't!
Now, this process (removal of auxin) can also allow needle buds to grow, and help stimulate back budding. This can be a benefit if you happen to get buds where you want them, but that's not the primary goal. The goal we are looking for is the development of adventitious buds at the base of the former spring candle. Any other back budding is a bonus.
There are other pruning techniques designed specifically for forcing back budding. I'm not discussing those here.
(I just went out and took a picture of some back budding that resulted from by decandling this year. Once my iphone uploads it to iCloud, I'll be able to attach it to this thread.)
Now, you may be asking why JBP do this? Well, the best answer I've heard is that JBP grow in an area of Japan that is subject to hurricanes, and the storms have the ability to blow off the new, soft Spring candles. Being able to have a second flush has allowed the trees to survive in the hurricane prone area. Whether that's true or not, I really don't know, but it's a good story, and I'm sticking to it.
By the way, this also works for Japanese Red Pine, and the Virginia Pine. Not all two needle pines! Just those. And as far as I know, no 5 needle pines. If in doubt seek advice with an expert on that particular species.
Who discovered this: AH HA! THAT, I can tell you: One spring day back in Aichi Prefecture, about 50 years ago, Saichi Suzuki noticed that several of his JBP had been attacked by insects, probably caterpillars. On one of the trees, all the new Spring candles were completely gone. Since the old needles were there, he continued to water the tree. After a few weeks, the new buds began to come out. There were multiple buds at the base of the eaten candles. As the season progressed the new candles opened up and the needles were short.
That is how my teacher's (Boon) teacher's teacher's father became the discoverer of the JBP decandling technique!
More later...
Why does it work? There's a hormone in the growing tips called auxin that suppresses the growth of the adventitious buds. When we remove the candle, we remove the auxin, so the adventitious buds are no longer suppressed, so they can now grow.
The horticulturalists among us can go into a great deal more detail about this, but I can't!
Now, this process (removal of auxin) can also allow needle buds to grow, and help stimulate back budding. This can be a benefit if you happen to get buds where you want them, but that's not the primary goal. The goal we are looking for is the development of adventitious buds at the base of the former spring candle. Any other back budding is a bonus.
There are other pruning techniques designed specifically for forcing back budding. I'm not discussing those here.
(I just went out and took a picture of some back budding that resulted from by decandling this year. Once my iphone uploads it to iCloud, I'll be able to attach it to this thread.)
Now, you may be asking why JBP do this? Well, the best answer I've heard is that JBP grow in an area of Japan that is subject to hurricanes, and the storms have the ability to blow off the new, soft Spring candles. Being able to have a second flush has allowed the trees to survive in the hurricane prone area. Whether that's true or not, I really don't know, but it's a good story, and I'm sticking to it.
By the way, this also works for Japanese Red Pine, and the Virginia Pine. Not all two needle pines! Just those. And as far as I know, no 5 needle pines. If in doubt seek advice with an expert on that particular species.
Who discovered this: AH HA! THAT, I can tell you: One spring day back in Aichi Prefecture, about 50 years ago, Saichi Suzuki noticed that several of his JBP had been attacked by insects, probably caterpillars. On one of the trees, all the new Spring candles were completely gone. Since the old needles were there, he continued to water the tree. After a few weeks, the new buds began to come out. There were multiple buds at the base of the eaten candles. As the season progressed the new candles opened up and the needles were short.
That is how my teacher's (Boon) teacher's teacher's father became the discoverer of the JBP decandling technique!
More later...
Skinnygoomba
Shohin
Reaching the purest form of a centuries old art form, is an artistic expression. It is impossible to remove yourself from the expression as an artist, but an attempt to do so in order to represent the intended form is quite rare.
I am a woodworker, and while many others chose to take on another's style, they often fall for the temptation to express their own deviation of the form. So much so, that it leaves being a true steward of the major styles to be a unique approach.
I am a woodworker, and while many others chose to take on another's style, they often fall for the temptation to express their own deviation of the form. So much so, that it leaves being a true steward of the major styles to be a unique approach.
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coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Can you describe these in a future post? Unless I'm not remembering correctly, I seem to recall the advice being to let the tree grow vigorously (i.e. no decandling) to promote backbudding. Supposedly it is the extra vigor that does the trick. But I would think that would allow the tree to "get away from you" if you're not careful.
Chris
larlamonde
Shohin
My favorite thread in a long while. Great discussion. Thanks guys, keep it coming!
I agree totally.
Coh,
That's one way, another is to decancle in the fall rather than the summer. It sets the tree back a year, but the tree will force out back buds and needle buds.
There's ways to force needle buds, used work selected needle pulling to only get buds where you want them. Maybe. LOL!! There are no guarantees with forcing backbuding. That's why I learned to graft!
That's one way, another is to decancle in the fall rather than the summer. It sets the tree back a year, but the tree will force out back buds and needle buds.
There's ways to force needle buds, used work selected needle pulling to only get buds where you want them. Maybe. LOL!! There are no guarantees with forcing backbuding. That's why I learned to graft!
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