What's The Rush?

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I can't help but to notice a substantial number of pre-bonsai (in some cases, stock), still in need of serious development, being shown on this forum and others planted in a bonsai pot.

My question would be why?

I think it is safe to say that most beginners can be excused until they learn better, but what about bonsaists that have been practicing for a few years? Certainly they know that one of the purposes of a bonsai pot is to restrict growth, exactly the opposite result that a tree in development needs. Trunk thickening, branch thickening, and such all slow down in a bonsai pot, as does Nebari development.

So what's the rush? Is it just to say they have a bonsai? Because they honestly don't know any better? Because they are blind to the fact that the tree is in need of development that would be obtained quicker in a training pot, box, or in some cases, the ground?


What do you think?




Will
 

bonsai barry

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Human nature, I guess. People are excited about a new tree or a new personal insight to one of their trees. The need for affirmation is a strong motivator.
 
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Maybe, so they rush it into a pot, just to show it and affirm what, that they have a bonsai, or are they blind to the material or blind to the needs of the material because of excitement?



Will
 
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So it looks cool.

Lol, well I guess the definition of "cool" would change as one becomes more experienced. For example, I see not much "cool" when viewing a bent stick in a bonsai pot. However, it may very well look "cool" to a beginner, so I can't dismiss your thought.



Will
 

Smoke

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I'll bet not many pot makers respond to this thread;)
 

Smoke

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Maybe we can start with these example here:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8186#post8186

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=630

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=632

These three examples all seem to have the same level of finish on them and are obviously undergoing improvement. It seems to me that each of these might benifit from a few more additional years in a box or colander. The mugo needs much development and refinement. In one of your posts you even mentioned that William said the pot was better than the tree. That would be the first clue to get it out of the pot.

Hence my comment in one of the threads: "Let me understand this, you exhibited these"?

Best regards, Al
 

irene_b

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Good Topic Will..

I am an experimenter and work with a wide variety of Natives.
I have a few that I micro manage on their growth rate.
But they are set aside for a future project that I am wanting to do.
And yes they are in the pots to slow down the rate of growth.
Mom
 
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These three examples all seem to have the same level of finish on them and are obviously undergoing improvement. It seems to me that each of these might benifit from a few more additional years in a box or colander. The mugo needs much development and refinement. In one of your posts you even mentioned that William said the pot was better than the tree. That would be the first clue to get it out of the pot.

Hence my comment in one of the threads: "Let me understand this, you exhibited these"?
Typical Al, typical, never pass up a chance to try and insult me, so predictable, so asinine.

If course I could respond by posting links to a dozen trees you posted that are in obvious need of serious development, but I tend not to incite arguments whenever possible. I could also have posted links to many other stick in a pot bonsai on this forum, but why embarrass or anger anyone?

Al, not one of the trees of mine you linked to needs trunk development, growth, or branch thickening, they are as I want them to be. What they do need in ramification and fine development, something best obtained in a bonsai pot where the roots are restricted. These not only are Shohin, they are Ficus, which grow very quickly, to place these in a training planter or box as you suggested would encourage rank growth, thicken the branches, and lose whatever refinement I have already accomplished. Honestly Al, after 24 years in bonsai, I think you would know this.

As to the mugo, Bill did not make that comment on that tree, you are confused. I have been told by a few respected people that the mugo is on the right track, I'll take their word for it, and again, it does not need trunk thickening, branch thickening, or more growth, it does need more ramification and fine development, again, something that is better done in a restricted root environment to prevent rank growth.

And lastly, yes I did exhibit these and came home with a first place ribbon for my trouble, first place as judged by Bill, I hope you'll excuse me if I take his experience and results over your obviously biased opinions.

I do appreciate your opinion as always, and as always I will weigh it carefully and then take it at it's worth based on your own experience, results, and past biases, grudges, and ill felt opinions.

Now, if you are done trying to incite another senseless argument here, maybe you can actually comment on the subject instead of once again trying to bring me down, it ain't working, it never has, it never will.


Will
 
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Good Topic Will..

I am an experimenter and work with a wide variety of Natives.
I have a few that I micro manage on their growth rate.
But they are set aside for a future project that I am wanting to do.
And yes they are in the pots to slow down the rate of growth.

Thanks Irene.

I guess that is why there are so many mica pots? ;)



Will
 

agraham

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I think some examples of these pre bonsai in bonsai pots that you are referring to would help, Will.We all have our own standards for a "finished" or displayable bonsai.If I waited until any of my trees were displayable at a Boon show,I'd have no need at all for bonsai pots.If my goal was to display at a club show it would be different.If I were to have the goal of displaying trees in my backyard and enjoying them as bonsai,or sharing them with friends on the internet as bonsai ..........well,get the picture?

Speaking for myself only...I am not as interested in promoting myself as a skilled and talented bonsaist as I am in sharing with friends.There are probably quite a few people posting pictures of "less than finished" trees that share this philosophy.

Pointing out what you perceive as a "problem" and lack of knowledge and/or talent without being specific about which trees you are talking about leaves some of us wondering if you are referring to our trees.

andy
 

imholte

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I agree that many people put trees in pots sooner than they should. They would reach their desired outcome quicker if not put in a pot. But then again I learn the best if I do it myself.

For some bonsai is about creating trees for show and for some it is about creating trees that satisfy their idea of nature,

Now on another note about this forum and its constant bickering from certain people.....
Will you asked a question and Al made his comment on it...so why get defensive about it..ignore it if it bugs you that much. That is what Al thinks... I believe that he has the right to post that, it is his opinion.

If one asks for ideas and comments then they must be willing and understanding to listen to ideas that people present whether they like them or not...otherwise dont ask.

Will you posted "not one of the trees of mine you linked to needs trunk development, growth, or branch thickening, they are as I want them to be" If that is how you want them then that is great...you obviously have an style in mind that you want to achieve, others may think different but if a tree is posted on this forum then I assume that one is seeking comment...it may be not what you want to hear but you must be willing to hear both sides.
 

irene_b

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... an awefull lot of conceited people around here.:rolleyes:
And who might that be here at Bnut? :D
Me I never looked at myself as conceited! ;)
Conceit is for those unsure of themselves. :D
I am convinced ;)
Mom
 

Bill S

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This thought came to me before reading most of the posts, not conciet Rick, I'm angling more towards ego, - Yea it should be in a training pot, but I can work around it, kind of idea. As Irene posted it can be used as a tool of sorts.

I have personally up potted things that came in pots, just for the reasons Will talks about. More need to learn about the horticultural needs of our trees, as bonsai, Before training begins. We see far too many ???? about trees that have been worked on without the correct if any working knowledge of the stock.

Just as an I'm kind of guilty too, I will sometimes use a larger pot than would normally be used as a bonsai pot for training purposes. Sometimes if for no other reason I need a pot, and don't have a suitable terra cotta, or nursery bucket.
 
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I think some examples of these pre bonsai in bonsai pots that you are referring to would help....
....Pointing out what you perceive as a "problem" and lack of knowledge and/or talent without being specific about which trees you are talking about leaves some of us wondering if you are referring to our trees.
Andy,

You know full well that finger pointing or picking on one person leads to nothing but hard feelings and heated posts. I would have thought you would have had enough of this by now.

There is no reason to point at one or two examples, we all have seen such posted. This is not about slamming anyone, it is about understanding why people rush trees into bonsai pots.

I have been guilty of this same thing in the past, I am sure we all have, but the question, indeed the topic, is why. As to wondering if I am referring to anyone in particular, I was not, but it can't be a bad thing if it makes us all think.


Will
 
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Now on another note about this forum and its constant bickering from certain people.....
Will you asked a question and Al made his comment on it...so why get defensive about it..ignore it if it bugs you that much. That is what Al thinks... I believe that he has the right to post that, it is his opinion.
Sorry, Al has a history and his words are judged by such. In this case he used a classic example of Ad hominem (tu quoque) which is just a form of attacking a person by trying to claim that a person doesn't practice what he preaches and therefore his thoughts hold no weight, this is a false assumption and serves no good either in adding to the discussion or learning from it. In fact, Al is quite good at diverting away from a subject and trying to make it personal.

I did not give examples because I wanted a intelligent discussion without hard feelings. Those of us that are guilty know it know or will eventually.

If one asks for ideas and comments then they must be willing and understanding to listen to ideas that people present whether they like them or not...otherwise dont ask.
Al gave no discussion as to the topic at all. Instead he used examples meant soley to heat the discussion and as usual, try and pull me down into the bucket, I will call him on this every time, as I always have.

Lastly, until you become a moderator here, I will ask what I darn well please, thank you.



Will
 
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