What's The Rush?

[Anonymous User]

This thought came to me before reading most of the posts, not conciet Rick, I'm angling more towards ego, - Yea it should be in a training pot, but I can work around it, kind of idea. As Irene posted it can be used as a tool of sorts.

I have personally up potted things that came in pots, just for the reasons Will talks about. More need to learn about the horticultural needs of our trees, as bonsai, Before training begins. We see far too many ???? about trees that have been worked on without the correct if any working knowledge of the stock.

Just as an I'm kind of guilty too, I will sometimes use a larger pot than would normally be used as a bonsai pot for training purposes. Sometimes if for no other reason I need a pot, and don't have a suitable terra cotta, or nursery bucket.

A larger pot works fine and I do the same thing sometimes, especially with collected stock and considering an over abundance of super large Chinese pots picked up at bargin prices. I still like pond baskets the best for training, but the ground wins hands down for out and out growth. Of my potted trees, 99% of mine are in pond baskets.



Will

 

[irene_b]

Can we please get back on topic.
Mom

 

[Chris Johnston]

Typical Al, typical, never pass up a chance to try and insult me, so predictable, so asinine.

If course I could respond by posting links to a dozen trees you posted that are in obvious need of serious development, but I tend not to incite arguments whenever possible. I could also have posted links to many other stick in a pot bonsai on this forum, but why embarrass or anger anyone?

Al, not one of the trees of mine you linked to needs trunk development, growth, or branch thickening, they are as I want them to be. What they do need in ramification and fine development, something best obtained in a bonsai pot where the roots are restricted. These not only are Shohin, they are Ficus, which grow very quickly, to place these in a training planter or box as you suggested would encourage rank growth, thicken the branches, and lose whatever refinement I have already accomplished. Honestly Al, after 24 years in bonsai, I think you would know this.

As to the mugo, Bill did not make that comment on that tree, you are confused. I have been told by a few respected people that the mugo is on the right track, I'll take their word for it, and again, it does not need trunk thickening, branch thickening, or more growth, it does need more ramification and fine development, again, something that is better done in a restricted root environment to prevent rank growth.

And lastly, yes I did exhibit these and came home with a first place ribbon for my trouble, first place as judged by Bill, I hope you'll excuse me if I take his experience and results over your obviously biased opinions.

I do appreciate your opinion as always, and as always I will weigh it carefully and then take it at it's worth based on your own experience, results, and past biases, grudges, and ill felt opinions.

Now, if you are done trying to incite another senseless argument here, maybe you can actually comment on the subject instead of once again trying to bring me down, it ain't working, it never has, it never will.


Will

Will,
I know you and Al have a history much as you and I do. However, I thought it was a fair question since you brought up the subject. In my opinion, all of the trees you have shown would benefit from more growth.

The use of a training pot is not solely for increasing trunk girth or branch size. The increased growth rate provides us with the raw material we will use to form our trees. Michael Persiano says this "verdant growth is the artist's pallette." We keep our trees in training pots to promote that.

I would not have shown these trees at this stage of development. I think it is rushing the process, regardless of a "best of show" ribbon in your class.

 

[Chris Johnston]

I think some examples of these pre bonsai in bonsai pots that you are referring to would help, Will.We all have our own standards for a "finished" or displayable bonsai.If I waited until any of my trees were displayable at a Boon show,I'd have no need at all for bonsai pots.If my goal was to display at a club show it would be different.If I were to have the goal of displaying trees in my backyard and enjoying them as bonsai,or sharing them with friends on the internet as bonsai ..........well,get the picture?

Speaking for myself only...I am not as interested in promoting myself as a skilled and talented bonsaist as I am in sharing with friends.There are probably quite a few people posting pictures of "less than finished" trees that share this philosophy.

Pointing out what you perceive as a "problem" and lack of knowledge and/or talent without being specific about which trees you are talking about leaves some of us wondering if you are referring to our trees.

andy

I am kind of with you, Andy. Although I do have one tree advanced enough to show locally, I do not do so because it is not up to the standard to which I have become accustomed. It is in a bonsai pot, but not in a show pot. My exposed-root JBP is moving into energy management work, although I do have one more major trunk operation to perform.

I, too, was wondering which trees you were talking about, Will.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Will you posted "not one of the trees of mine you linked to needs trunk development, growth, or branch thickening, they are as I want them to be" If that is how you want them then that is great...you obviously have an style in mind that you want to achieve, others may think different but if a tree is posted on this forum then I assume that one is seeking comment...it may be not what you want to hear but you must be willing to hear both sides.

My thoughts exactly! Will, there is no need to get defensive. Al comes across strong just as you do from time to time. "Bitterest medicine" and all that. Take it with a grain of salt and make your case.

 

[Rick Moquin]

And who might that be here at Bnut?
Me I never looked at myself as conceited!
Conceit is for those unsure of themselves.
I am convinced
Mom

The constant display of one upmanship! ...well it is simply appalling.

The thread is controversial to say the least, one that will and has lead to the kind of results that we have witnessed and I am sure will continue until they run their course. Is this thread constructive? I doubt it!

The meaning of Bonsai is not the same to everyone, to some is owning or developing world class trees, to others the sheer enjoyment of the passion provided by its journey.

Once the trunk is developed to the "owners" satisfaction then, work can commence on the nebari. Dependant on the subject, at times these two "most important" aspects of bonsai may actually occur concurently. Then the primary and secondary branches are developed. Once the 4 aspects have been accomplished, yes it is time to go in a bonsai pot, and the sooner the better. Fitting a tree to a suitable pot will require root reduction (in some aspect), sometimes minimal but sometimes it could be radical. The latter is not recommended. It is indeed wiser to commence it's restrictive life in a slightly large pot, until root pruning can take place carefully in subsequent repotting. What would be the purpose of completly growing out a show ready bonsai in a growing box, basket or even the ground, only to throw a branch because of a root that supported that branch was severed during initial potting. It is far better to get it into a pot before final styling is done.

Pots do indeed impeed growth, but if in the owners opinion that is what he is trying to achieve, then by all means, so be it, furthermore, not everyone wants a 2 man bonsai, some are completly satisfied with shohin up to 2 hand bonsai.

Now for folks that enjoy the passion for what it is, growing a tree in a pot, the enjoyment far outweights any competition that one may or may not participate in. Watching the fruits of your labour develop over your careful manipulation is a reward that no blue ribbon can bring. Although, winning awards is always satisfying, bonsai comes from the soul and its beauty in the eye of the beholder, the rest is merely subjective and speculative.

There are some far wiser individuals out there that can appreciate bonsai for what it is vice what is displayed here on far too many ocasions IMHO.Trees that are posted are up for critique, that is a no brainer. It is the owner's responsibility to post their trees and ask for direction in areas he/she wish to improve (not unlike Tom's dragon in a box). The tree was posted, stating its flaws and requested
ways ahead from the more experience enthusiasts at large. On the other hand if one posts a tree and says "what do you think? then all comments and criticism are to be expected.

FWIW Will's semi cascade retusa, it is developing and it's headed in the right direction with the exception of the pot. It is well suited for a crescent shape pot, but not one that looks like "Mr Pacman" ready to gobble up the tree. I believe a crescent with straighter back might assist in this area. Besides if he is happy with it so be it.

...and you wonder why I post infrequently?

 

[Rick Moquin]

It kind of takes a conceited person to make that statement, doesn't it?


Will

You should take the time to read my reply. Do you feel guilty or something? Why must you constantly think the finger points to you?? Tsk, tsk

 

[Anonymous User]

In my opinion, all of the trees you have shown would benefit from more growth.

Well then,please post examples of which tree shown you think would benefit from more growth, meaning thicker trunks and branches. This should be educational. By all means, please post examples of your own trees for comparision so that I may know what to strive for. !0 years in bonsai and being under the instruction of Boon, I look forward to learning from your trees.

I would not have shown these trees at this stage of development. I think it is rushing the process, regardless of a "best of show" ribbon in your class.

Yeah, winning first in you class means nothing. So your suggestion would be for anyone without a tree that has reached an undefined level of development based on your personal standards should not participate in club shows at all, correct?


Will

 

[Anonymous User]

You should take the time to read my reply. Do you feel guilty or something? Why must you constantly think the finger points to you?? Tsk, tsk

Rick, you should take the time to read all the posts in correct order. I did read and quote your whole one sentence reply. Your second reply was made after I responded to your first post here.


Will

 

[Rick Moquin]

Rick, you should take the time to read all the posts in correct order. I did read and quote your whole one sentence reply. Your second reply was made after I responded to your first post here.


Will

...ah but you never answered my question?

FWIW, your post was posted as I was drafting my response to Irene.

 

[Anonymous User]

The constant display of one upmanship! ...well it is simply appalling.

The thread is controversial to say the least, one that will and has lead to the kind of results that we have witnessed and I am sure will continue until they run their course. Is this thread constructive? I doubt it!


...and you wonder why I post infrequently?[/

By all means, feel free to ignore the thread if you honestly find it so appalling. Remember the forum is like a television, if you don't like what is on, change the channel, it makes no sense to just sit there and scream at the screen. The question is why you are so attracted to such threads, like a moth to a bug zapper, just can't ignore it, can't stay away, can't help but to jump in and add to the fray, in fact, I think these are the only posts I see you participate in....what does that tell us?



Will

 

[irene_b]

Allright Fellas!!!!!


If you cannot stay on the topic, please refrain from posting here!
This applies to EVERYBODY!

Mom

 

[bwaynef]

It kind of takes a conceited person to make that statement, doesn't it?
Will

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ad hominem
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

 

[Chris Johnston]

Well then,please post examples of which tree shown you think would benefit from more growth, meaning thicker trunks and branches. This should be educational. By all means, please post examples of your own trees for comparision so that I may know what to strive for. !0 years in bonsai and being under the instruction of Boon, I look forward to learning from your trees.


Yeah, winning first in you class means nothing. So your suggestion would be for anyone without a tree that has reached an undefined level of development based on your personal standards should not participate in club shows at all, correct?


Will

Will, calm down. I was not attacking you and don't appreciate the snarl in your written tone. More growth doesn't have to mean thicker trunks and branches, only unregulated growth does that. What if you could defoliate twice a year instead of once? Would that ramify your tree more quickly? Wouldn't it also serve to keep branch size and trunk size in check? A bonsai pot is not the only way to do that.

You have seen all my trees. Here's a progression on my most advanced tree, which is entering the timme when I want to manage candle length.

Neagari

I have never shown this tree, it is not advanced enough.

 

[Chris Johnston]

Yeah, winning first in you class means nothing. So your suggestion would be for anyone without a tree that has reached an undefined level of development based on your personal standards should not participate in club shows at all, correct?
Will

Will,
Once again I was not attacking you. Can we have a discussion about anyones trees except yours? I gave you an honest critique of all the trees you have posted (except the cascade which I did not critique). That's what these forums are about.

If I think your tree is too soon to show, that is my opinion. I think far too many trees are shown in the US, and that is one of the problems with American bonsai. You brought the thread up, and if it hurts you to discuss these things, let's lock the thread right now!

 

[grouper52]

Now on another note about this forum and its constant bickering from certain people.....
Will you asked a question and Al made his comment on it...so why get defensive about it..ignore it if it bugs you that much. That is what Al thinks... I believe that he has the right to post that, it is his opinion.

If one asks for ideas and comments then they must be willing and understanding to listen to ideas that people present whether they like them or not...otherwise dont ask.

Will you posted "not one of the trees of mine you linked to needs trunk development, growth, or branch thickening, they are as I want them to be" If that is how you want them then that is great...you obviously have an style in mind that you want to achieve, others may think different but if a tree is posted on this forum then I assume that one is seeking comment...it may be not what you want to hear but you must be willing to hear both sides.

I could not agree more.

Will, I believe that at some point you must simply step back and take a long, hard, honest look at yourself, and ask, "What is it about ME that people are always attacking me?". It's very sad for you if this thread doesn't make it as crystal clear for you as it does for others.

grouper52

 

[Anonymous User]

Will,
Once again I was not attacking you. Can we have a discussion about anyones trees except yours? I gave you an honest critique of all the trees you have posted (except the cascade which I did not critique). That's what these forums are about.

If I think your tree is too soon to show, that is my opinion. I think far too many trees are shown in the US, and that is one of the problems with American bonsai. You brought the thread up, and if it hurts you to discuss these things, let's lock the thread right now!

Chris,

No one claimed you were attacking me, this is your own suggerstion, not mine.

I did however ask you a direct question, will you answer it so I can understand where you are coming from...at what level must a bonsai be at in order to be shown at a club show? Certainly you have an answer, as you judged my own not to be ready to be shown at a club show. This should help everyone who participates in their own club.

Futhermore, as much as some would like to make it to be, this thread is not about me, sorry you'll have to find the "get will thread."

Will
Will

 

[Chris Johnston]

Chris,

No one claimed you were attacking me, this is your own suggerstion,not mine.

I did however ask you a direct question, will you answer it so I can understand where you are coming from...at what level must a bonsai be at in order to be shown at a club show? Certainly you have an answer, as you judged my own not to be ready to be shown at a club show. This should help everyone who participates in their own club.
Will
Will

Will,
That's a nonsense question and you know it. But I did answer it.

If I think your tree is too soon to show, that is my opinion. I think far too many trees are shown in the US, and that is one of the problems with American bonsai. You brought the thread up, and if it hurts you to discuss these things, let's lock the thread right now!

 

[Chris Johnston]

Chris,

No one claimed you were attacking me, this is your own suggerstion, not mine.

Will.
You are not stupid.
Please do not assume that I am or others are.
You are a good enough writer to write things in any tone you wish. You write nothing by accident. The tone of your post was quite defensive.

 

[agraham]

"Certainly they know that one of the purposes of a bonsai pot is to restrict growth, exactly the opposite result that a tree in development needs. Trunk thickening, branch thickening, and such all slow down in a bonsai pot, as does Nebari development.

So what's the rush? Is it just to say they have a bonsai? Because they honestly don't know any better? Because they are blind to the fact that the tree is in need of development that would be obtained quicker in a training pot, box, or in some cases, the ground?


What do you think?".....Will Heath

Getting back to the question .......

Who knows?...there are probably as many reasons as there are bonsaists.I have trees in training pots that are much further developed than some I have in bonsai pots.I had a pot that fit....I put a tree in it.It's as simple as that sometimes.I don't grow many trees in the ground because we have freezes down here and I sometimes have to move my trees(mostly tropicals)to protection.I don't see why a training box is a better container than a bonsai pot.After I get a trunk "built" I like to slow the trees down to develop the branching.I think a shallow bonsai pot works just as well as anything else(and better than the ground) to develop nebari.

Maybe I don't know any better,or maybe I don't have the same goals in mind as some.I think the latter is what we all need to understand.The "right way" or even the "best way" to achieve our goals may be wrong for someone else because their goal is not the same as ours.

andy