Why I am always pushing for a hard chop (tree collection).

[Poink88]

Just to settle it once and for all...I'll start my own thread so as not to keep tainting other threads. Feel free to bash or "educate" me after reading my thoughts.

My beliefs.
1. The tree is strongest while it is in the ground...just before collection.
2. Root to trunk ratio. The higher it is the better chances the tree have.
3. Cut paste saves much needed moisture from evaporating.
4. Grow branches where you need them.
5. Eliminate unnecessary branch or trunk ASAP.
6. Timing is very critical...most deciduous trees are best collected at early bud formation. Broadleaf evergreens when temps are no lower than 50*F but not during mid-summer either.

There are exceptions (like design consideration) but if a tree freely backbuds, this is my general guideline.
A. Chop the trunk at no more than 6x the base. I shoot for 3x-4x if possible.
B. For a plant with primary or secondary branches remaining, cut them to half the radius of the finished bonsai as much as possible.
C. If possible, no STRAIGHT trunk or branch should be longer than 3x its diameter.

I've done this on various plants and experienced NO die-backs. It seems I am extremely lucky and should be thanking the plant Gods for this but I cannot understand why others seem to have too much reported (or just claimed) die back.
Maybe...
- they do not use cut paste?
- because their root to trunk ratio is very low (see #3)?
- it is regional?
- their collection technique is wrong?

I want to avoid re-chopping the tree in the future when it is no longer as strong as when it was collected. It also saves time which I am openly a proponent of.

There are some specie specific differences but most of these apply on most trees IMHO.

I am new to bonsai but not new to trees/plants. I have been air layering since age 4 and planting cuttings also as early as that. Later years were not as involved but growing in a farm teaches you lots of things.

There it is, if you've read this in its entirety, I thank you.

If I am mistaken, please let me know. Now, FIRE AWAY!!!

 

[misfit11]

2. Root to trunk ratio. The higher it is the better chances the tree have.
5. Eliminate unnecessary branch or trunk ASAP.

Dario,

I believe most of your assessment is correct. However, with regards to collection of yamadori junipers it my understanding that you chances of success are greater when no foliage is cut at all. Apparently with junipers, the strength is in the foliage rather than in the roots. This is contrary to the advise for collection of virtually all other species.

So yes, for MOST species (esp. broadleaved) the above observations are true.

Cory

 

[Beng]

Some trees do not like hard chops. I've had 1 inch thick branches die back about half an inch on japanese maples, and ilex serrata even with cut paste. Most trees don't sweat it and heal up when cut in the spring. Perhaps i've been cutting my maples and ilex at the wrong time.

I also think many of us are drawn to over sized enormous trunks sumo or almost sumo with extreme taper. Trees in nature don't usually form like this, they form taper very slowly and trunks are mostly straight. They're not logs but most trees don't have the look of a sumo bonsai either. Bonsai is about recreating different styles, however many of those styles are only very rarely seen in nature. Esp when people start out they want to chop everything down to the lowest branch and start over. The only problem with that is the amount of time it takes to get it to a finished tree. If you have 20 years to finish a tree then it's a great way to go. If you're older and you don't then it's a bad idea as your new leader may never match up proportionally to the trunk below in this lifetime.

Formal Upright "you see this one all the time in nature"
Informal Upright "you see this one all the time in nature."
Sumo "rarely seen in nature"
Broom "you see this one all the time."
Slanted "you see this one all the time."
Windswept "rarely seen in nature"
Cascade "rarely seen in nature"
Semi-Cascade "rarely seen in nature"
Multi-Trunk "sometimes seen in nature"
Literati "sometimes seen in nature"
Root over rock "sometimes seen in nature.
Raft from one trunk "rarely seen in nature"
Group/clump "often seen as it replicates a forest"

 

[Poink88]

Thanks Cory,

Sorry I was not clear (though I mentioned it in #6)...these are only for deciduous and broadleaf evergreen. Not for conifers or junipers.

 

[rockm]

FWIW, you're not going to settle anything. And this really isn't a contest... or all about you.

Tree do experience die back when hard pruned. depending on age, weather, etc.

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't make you some kind of bonsai savant and those of us that have had and try to guard against it aren't idiots. It means you just haven't had it happen.

 

[Dav4]

When I collect a piece of material, first and foremost, I want it to survive the collection, AND be a usable piece of material after it's collected. Nothing else matters at this point, and everything I do while performing the collection is done with this in mind. I don't worry about extra trunk, final branching, etc., because the tree isn't good pre-bonsai material until it's survived the collection (maybe 2-3 years out to be sure) and can be styled. Once recovered and growing well, IF my original chop was too high, I can do a subsequent chop. For me, this isn't a race. I've got several tridents and palmatums that I collected over 5 years ago after being field grown for 8-9 years that still don't have any significant branching...I've been working on the roots, instead. Until I get the roots where I want them, the branches are secondary and not a concern.

...Almost forgot...both of the palmatums I have did have a descent amount of die back below the initial chop...go figure.

 

[marcosolo]

FWIW, you're not going to settle anything. And this really isn't a contest... or all about you.

Tree do experience die back when hard pruned. depending on age, weather, etc.

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't make you some kind of bonsai savant and those of us that have had and try to guard against it aren't idiots. It means you just haven't had it happen.

Somebody's mad bro.....

 

[Redwood Ryan]

And here we go....

 

[october]

When I collect a piece of material, first and foremost, I want it to survive the collection, AND be a usable piece of material after it's collected. Nothing else matters at this point, and everything I do while performing the collection is done with this in mind. I don't worry about extra trunk, final branching, etc., because the tree isn't good pre-bonsai material until it's survived the collection (maybe 2-3 years out to be sure) and can be styled. Once recovered and growing well, IF my original chop was too high, I can do a subsequent chop. For me, this isn't a race. I've got several tridents and palmatums that I collected over 5 years ago after being field grown for 8-9 years that still don't have any significant branching...I've been working on the roots, instead. Until I get the roots where I want them, the branches are secondary and not a concern.

Dave, the crazy statements that come from you sometimes.. considering the health of the tree first, taking time to develop the material. Roots being a first concern... Doing branch work after you know the tree has survived and is healthy. .where are you getting this stuff.

I am just having fun here...Truth is, Daves procedures are considered text book, standard techniques among the most successful collectors in the business. Following these techniques can remove such a large part of the risk of a tree never becoming a good bonsai.

Rob

 

[yenling83]

In general you want to chop a tree back in stages to reduce the chance of die back. You can still get down to that portion you want, but you have to do it over sevearl years. Sure you might experience no die back on your 1-3 inch young maples. But if you own an older, expensive tree with a big trunk you don't want to just make a big huge chop. The other thing is, you may not think there is die back, but it will happen slowly over years, happening on the side with less or no branches.

Do it in stages and also use the technique below to help it heal faster and more completely. Large areas that don't heal are asking for infection over time.

Picture taken from the awesome blog Bonsai Tonight:

 

[coh]

I don't really have a dog in this fight...but Dario, can you answer the following question:

When did you collect your first piece of bonsai material, i.e. how long have you had it in the grow box? You've been doing this for what, 1 year? 2 years? I see you joined this site just a year ago but can't remember if you were posting on IBC before that time.

In my opinion, the succcess (or lack thereof) of your approach won't be known for years. I'm glad you're posting what you've done and hope you will continue posting as your trees evolve over the next 2, 5, 10+ years.

I haven't done much collecting (and probably won't), but whatever I do collect will be treated more conservatively (regarding chops in particular) until I see long-term results.

Chris

 

[RichKid]

In general you want to chop a tree back in stages to reduce the chance of die back. You can still get down to that portion you want, but you have to do it over sevearl years. Sure you might experience no die back on your 1-3 inch young maples. But if you own an older, expensive tree with a big trunk you don't want to just make a big huge chop. The other thing is, you may not think there is die back, but it will happen slowly over years, happening on the side with less or no branches.

Do it in stages and also use the technique below to help it heal faster and more completely. Large areas that don't heal are asking for infection over time.

Picture taken from the awesome blog Bonsai Tonight:

View attachment 32091

That looks interesting. Could you please explain whats happening and why in that picture please? Thanks!

 

[RichKid]

So is cut paste necessary? I've heard of people using elmers glue. Any recommendations.

 

[nathanbs]

So is cut paste necessary? I've heard of people using elmers glue. Any recommendations.

there's some pretty thorough discussions here on bnut regarding cutpaste

 

[coh]

So is cut paste necessary? I've heard of people using elmers glue. Any recommendations.

Yes or no, depending on who you ask People use elmers glue, other wood glues (titebond), and various home-made concoctions. Have you read some of the past "discussions" on cut paste? I put "discussions" in quotes because the discussing usually lasts a short time...followed of course by arguing.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Well shoot, since the can of worms is open, what's the best soil to use for my trees

 

[RichKid]

Sorry, I guess I should've used the "search" function. I just figured while the discussion was on the topic all questions were game.

 

[yenling83]

That looks interesting. Could you please explain whats happening and why in that picture please? Thanks!

You remove only a section of the branch at a time. So cut away half of the branch so the other half is alive. The half that's alive will heal the wound much faster. Once the half of the wound is healed you remove the other half of the branch that you kept alive. The first half that you removed, will now help heal the second half of the wound. Hope my explination makes sense.

 

[nathanbs]

Sorry, I guess I should've used the "search" function. I just figured while the discussion was on the topic all questions were game.

for what its worth i say yes use cut paste. But just like tools there are different products for different applications, each having a slightly different benefit or purpose. Elmers glue or wood glue work great overall. If you have perfected your scar treatments and want a very smooth callous roll bumps in the glue can and will be inherited in the callous so make it smooth.

 

[RichKid]

You remove only a section of the branch at a time. So cut away half of the branch so the other half is alive. The half that's alive will heal the wound much faster. Once the half of the wound is healed you remove the other half of the branch that you kept alive. The first half that you removed, will now help heal the second half of the wound. Hope my explination makes sense.

Perfect sense.