Why I am always pushing for a hard chop (tree collection).

[Smoke]

You remove only a section of the branch at a time. So cut away half of the branch so the other half is alive. The half that's alive will heal the wound much faster. Once the half of the wound is healed you remove the other half of the branch that you kept alive. The first half that you removed, will now help heal the second half of the wound. Hope my explination makes sense.

Sounds great in theory. Have you tried this and does the theory support the text? Do you have any pictures to support this method?

Sounds like two chances to make a fugly scar......

 

[Poink88]

FWIW, you're not going to settle anything. And this really isn't a contest... or all about you.

Tree do experience die back when hard pruned. depending on age, weather, etc.

Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't make you some kind of bonsai savant and those of us that have had and try to guard against it aren't idiots. It means you just haven't had it happen.

Rockm,

It is never about me...it is about the technique. You share a lot is it about you? I don't think so...it is because you want to SHARE. Believe it or not, you are my most respected contributor here at BNut and it pains me to disagree with you sometimes.

I am not special (not even good in my own standards) and that is why I am sharing my procedure...maybe it makes the difference.

 

[marcosolo]

On the topic of die back!

River Birch......admire my stupidity.....or genius?...lol

probably won't amount to much.... I'll see what y'all think.....

 

[Poink88]

When I collect a piece of material, first and foremost, I want it to survive the collection, AND be a usable piece of material after it's collected. Nothing else matters at this point, and everything I do while performing the collection is done with this in mind. I don't worry about extra trunk, final branching, etc., because the tree isn't good pre-bonsai material until it's survived the collection (maybe 2-3 years out to be sure) and can be styled. Once recovered and growing well, IF my original chop was too high, I can do a subsequent chop. For me, this isn't a race. I've got several tridents and palmatums that I collected over 5 years ago after being field grown for 8-9 years that still don't have any significant branching...I've been working on the roots, instead. Until I get the roots where I want them, the branches are secondary and not a concern.

...Almost forgot...both of the palmatums I have did have a descent amount of die back below the initial chop...go figure.

Great post and I couldn't agree more.

However, (hypothetically) IF you can increase your trees chances of survival and as a bonus, you get to reduce die back and get the branches where you need them...would you do it? Or at least give it a try? All I ask is give it a chance.

 

[lordy]

so, Dario, here's what I think you should do: STOP saying IMHO. You seem to swear by your one year's bonsai experience (or at least newbie, your words), so take a stand and say "this is fact." If not, all you are really doing is looking to others who have been practicing for much longer to validate your guesses. And when they push back based on years of experience, you take offense, even though you ask for brutal truth.
What you have done is collect a boatload of urbandori and learned a few things from your experiences, which is good! But a year is nothing in the life of a tree. As I and quite a few others have said here, it can take several years before you see the effects of something done to a piece of material. I suggest you relax a bit and take it in. Continue touching and learning about each of your hundred trees several times a day. That is a good way to continue to learn how they respond to various actions. Please know that I am not bashing you, but speaking to you after seeing you slowly diminish your credibility by making statements based on very little bonsai background that most have learned to be just not true. You dont earn a Master's degree overnight.
Peace out.

 

[lordy]

for what its worth i say yes use cut paste. But just like tools there are different products for different applications, each having a slightly different benefit or purpose. Elmers glue or wood glue work great overall. If you have perfected your scar treatments and want a very smooth callous roll bumps in the glue can and will be inherited in the callous so make it smooth.

I dont use wood glue, so I cannot speak from experience on this. I do use both the stuff that resembles modeling clay, and I also use what seems more like toothpaste. I think the clay-like stuff is better for more concave cuts, and the slimy stuff from the tube works fine on smaller cuts, like maybe 3/8" and smaller. I also do some woodworking and use Elmer's Wood glue. I can imagine where that would dry so hard that it might restrict further callusing, but perhaps it doesnt. Many seem to recommend it's use.

 

[Poink88]

I don't really have a dog in this fight...but Dario, can you answer the following question:

When did you collect your first piece of bonsai material, i.e. how long have you had it in the grow box? You've been doing this for what, 1 year? 2 years? I see you joined this site just a year ago but can't remember if you were posting on IBC before that time.

In my opinion, the succcess (or lack thereof) of your approach won't be known for years. I'm glad you're posting what you've done and hope you will continue posting as your trees evolve over the next 2, 5, 10+ years.

I haven't done much collecting (and probably won't), but whatever I do collect will be treated more conservatively (regarding chops in particular) until I see long-term results.

Chris

Chris,

I have only been doing bonsai for 1.5 years. Yes only 18 months and only been collecting for 15 months. I am always brushed off because of that and I know it will come up every time.

Success rate, I still maintain about 95% (on my collected trees) and about half are collected the wrong time of year just because I have no choice (beggars cannot be choosers). Some are not touched since collection...a few are cruising along and will be in their bonsai pot next year (God willing).

I am not forcing the technique on anyone and they may choose to adapt it in the future if they choose. I may be proven wrong too so who knows. For now spring is here and all of them seem to be waking up and I'll enjoy them.

 

[lordy]

Sounds great in theory. Have you tried this and does the theory support the text? Do you have any pictures to support this method?

Sounds like two chances to make a fugly scar......

Not sure I agree with this practice. Boon did it to a Trident of mine. Cut thru half of a branch he said to cut off, and told me to finish the job in a year. The opposing branch I cut thru all the way. I honestly cant see a lot of difference in rate of callusing. "JMHO"... No, just kidding, this is FACT.

 

[Poink88]

So is cut paste necessary? I've heard of people using elmers glue. Any recommendations.

As mentioned...depends on who you ask. There are really big bonsai name who doesn't believe it is needed.

I use my own mix and so far I believe it is working well. It is a mix of honey, beeswax, and cooking oil.

I'd use wood glue in a pinch over nothing.

 

[Anthony]

If you learned to draw the tree [ design] and grew from cutting or seed, large chops are not needed.
Use a combination of ground and then large pot saucers [ that are about 4 inches deep to 6 inches ]

Harry Harrington shows that even in zone 8 to 9, well developed trees can be had in around 5 to 10 years.

As long as you know what yoy want before hand, all that dramatic stuff is not needed.
Good Evening.
Anthony.

* Age is another matter.

 

[Anthony]

DArio,

what does the honey do ?

Is is necessary to use a wood glue that is designed for outdoor use ?

Can you mix wood glue and the fine sawdust of a cedar type tree, where the sawdust is naturally protective ?

I have used the Japanese cut paste, it becomes brittle in our tropical climate in under a year.
Wondered if a little petroleum jelly would help?

Sorry only questions no experience with large or decaying wounds.
Thanks for any help.
Good Evening.
Anthony

 

[Poink88]

DArio,

what does the honey do ?

Is is necessary to use a wood glue that is designed for outdoor use ?

Can you mix wood glue and the fine sawdust of a cedar type tree, where the sawdust is naturally protective ?

I have used the Japanese cut paste, it becomes brittle in our tropical climate in under a year.
Wondered if a little petroleum jelly would help?

Sorry only questions no experience with large or decaying wounds.
Thanks for any help.
Good Evening.
Anthony

I forgot where I read about the mix but it is not my original. It was an experiment and I read that honey have some anti-fungal properties but not sure if it is true. I know it helped me get the correct consistency which is hard to attain with the wax and oil alone (very heat sensitive). Helps make the wax smell great too!

Please note that my mix is very temporary and not meant to protect the wood like the commercial cut paste...mine is just to prevent drying until the tree seals things by itself.

Re: the rest...sorry but no idea. For filling voids, there is a commercial wood filler that I know Kathy Shaner uses but I can't recall the brand.

 

[jkd2572]

That looks interesting. Could you please explain whats happening and why in that picture please? Thanks!

It helps the wound heal over faster.

 

[Poink88]

so, Dario, here's what I think you should do: STOP saying IMHO. You seem to swear by your one year's bonsai experience (or at least newbie, your words), so take a stand and say "this is fact." If not, all you are really doing is looking to others who have been practicing for much longer to validate your guesses. And when they push back based on years of experience, you take offense, even though you ask for brutal truth.
What you have done is collect a boatload of urbandori and learned a few things from your experiences, which is good! But a year is nothing in the life of a tree. As I and quite a few others have said here, it can take several years before you see the effects of something done to a piece of material. I suggest you relax a bit and take it in. Continue touching and learning about each of your hundred trees several times a day. That is a good way to continue to learn how they respond to various actions. Please know that I am not bashing you, but speaking to you after seeing you slowly diminish your credibility by making statements based on very little bonsai background that most have learned to be just not true. You dont earn a Master's degree overnight.
Peace out.

Sorry, deleting IMHO doesn't solve anything since they are indeed my own opinion.

Please tell me who learned what I am saying as not true. I would like it hear their account about it.

Masters degree overnight? Why does everyone keep saying that I am making myself more than who I am? I am not! I am just sharing a technique I find that works for me. Use it or ignore it...up to you.

Your suggestion is noted.

Thank you.

 

[Beng]

Honey in a homade cut paste sounds like one of the worst ideas ever. Ants bring all sorts of horrible bugs to our plants. Honey will most certainly attract them. Putting a natural sugar on a wound seems like a real bad idea whether or not it has anti fungal properties....

Lets say the ants bring aphids and while there at it munch on the honey. Even if they can't get to the wound cause of the wax and oil they will almost certainly leave other bad bugs behind on your plants as they leave. They'll probably install a colony in your soil while they're at it as they think your tree produces free honey for them. The oil may repel them, the beeswax may stop them, but the honey will definitely attract them!

Dario if I was you I'd order some glue or cut paste and remove the honey ASAP before the ants wake up in summer.

I use the grey putty Japanese cut paste for both deciduous and pines. Yes it dries up in a year but by then the wound doesn't need it anymore in most cases. I also use have started using tite bond this year but don't like it nearly as much as the pricier grey putty. http://www.weetree.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=199

 

[Smoke]

Not sure I agree with this practice. Boon did it to a Trident of mine. Cut thru half of a branch he said to cut off, and told me to finish the job in a year. The opposing branch I cut thru all the way. I honestly cant see a lot of difference in rate of callusing. "JMHO"... No, just kidding, this is FACT.

That was my experience. I find that making a surgical cut all the way around the scar so that a good ring of green shows and making the scar area as smooth as possible, even so far as sanding, will heal the scar just as fast and not lose a year in removing the offending branch.

 

[jkd2572]

Having a tree live after 15 months is not always success. They could still be dying. Respected collected wait four times that long until they proclaim success. Even old trees in nature sometime will start dying from the top down then they give a last ditch effort a shoot out suckers. Then they croak. I have also learned through my pocket book that sharps pigmy maples will not live in my climate. They look great for three seasons then croak. I paid dearly for that experience. My last attempt is sitting in my garage right now. Watched that bark slowly go from green to black all winter. What was interesting last spring it pushed out great leaves. Looked great. A month later those leaves dried up. It kept trying to push new leaves all summer. They would get to about 1/10 of the normal leaf size then dry up. This kept happening from may through the fall. I loved that damn tree so much I cant throw its skeleton away.

 

[Poink88]

Do it in stages and also use the technique below to help it heal faster and more completely. Large areas that don't heal are asking for infection over time.

Picture taken from the awesome blog Bonsai Tonight:

View attachment 32091

If you do this...please properly secure the branch being slowly removed. You do not want it snapping and ripping some of your tree bark all the way down to the roots!!!

 

[Smoke]

That would be great except they made the cut backwards. Branches heal scars "below" a branch not above them. While a branch nearby can help heal something faster, I would think leaving the ugly branch on for a year would be the sacrifice so to allow it to heal fastest, I would remove the lower part first.

If I remember correctly this was a photo from a tour in Japan. Pictures like this come home all the time. Many Japanese spending all day in the garden are always experimenting on ways to improve their craft. This picture does not mean it is any faster than just sawing it off and preparing the wound correctly and covering it with sealants made to do "that" job.

 

[jkd2572]

Probably also help Dario's point.