Why is there so much poor information about bonsai on the Internet?

[jk_lewis]

LOL! Funny

I found it a tad offensive.

In fact, I fond the whole thing by Angelfir a bit offputting.

I wrote:

"Any body can post any thing here with no peer review, no editing, no fact checking."

Angelfir wiote:

'Which is a good thing ... I know that freaks the old foghies out but it is'
It's really not. It is what it is. Neither good nor bad.

and Rockm wrote:

Old fogies aren't 'freaked out" by it. We're just weary of having ill-informed, ignorant or just plain dishonest Internet bonsai crappola (and crappola in general) presented as "fact." In bonsai, I can't count the times I've seen obvious worthless junk being sold as authentic bonsai with an accompanying price tag. All it takes is one look at 98 percent of the 'bonsai' sold on Ebay, or a look at some guy's YouTube video purporting to show how to repot a bonsai... Sorting through the chaff to get to the wheat is a real issue for many starting out. This kind of thing was true B4 the net, but there was much less of it and it wasn't as readily available.

I agree. In spades.

This "old fogie" was fiddling around on the internet probably before Angelfir knew what a computer was. I've run an I'net search service well before the days of the WWW and Google (or even Yahoo!) -- do you remember Nexis and Lexis? A text-based Internet? I KNOW what is there, what isn't there, and what is or is not worth a dime. The idiot-to-expert ratio on the internet is about 70-1. The "hey- look-at-ME" factor rules this medium -- not knowledge.

"Neither good nor bad" is a good commentary on society today. Mediocre.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[Smoke]

Just thought of an example - Lous bonsai on the net sells indoors redwoods, I called him on it, and got you are an ice hole, who do you think you are to tell me what I can sell. Tell him I can spread the good word, his response is well I know people that grow them indoors. Ya his sucker customers, this is a case of the bonsai seller selling the masses what ever gets them a buck. Is there something wrong with this picture, sure is, but I don't know how to fix it, the net is kind of like the the ole wild wild west, hang a sidearm off your belt and hope you make it to the next stop.

Capitalism at it's finest Bill. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Fixing it is what the other party does. Is that what you really want?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

This "old fogie" was fiddling around on the internet probably before Angelfir knew what a computer was. I've run an I'net search service well before the days of the WWW and Google (or even Yahoo!) -- do you remember Nexis and Lexis? A text-based Internet? I KNOW what is there, what isn't there, and what is or is not worth a dime. The idiot-to-expert ratio on the internet is about 70-1. The "hey- look-at-ME" factor rules this medium -- not knowledge.

"Neither good nor bad" is a good commentary on society today. Mediocre.

Sorry for the rant.

I used to hang out at University of Illinois' CERL so I could get on PLATO at 10:01 PM when the security wall came down and do "non-approved" stuff. So I'm with you on the whole LEXIS / NEXIS thing; you're speaking my "old fogie" language . But I don't program any more - just screw around with code for fun once in a blue moon. I hope I didn't irritate you with my comment - I was laughing about the whole "meta" turn of phrase and was not at all trying to poke fun at you or what you said.

My comment was not about the quality of information on the Internet in general, but the poor quality of BONSAI information specifically.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

By the way, this is why I use my real name on the forums, instead of calling myself XZY7977. It's my way of saying, that I stand by what I say, and take responsibility for it. I know that there are valid arguments for using screen names, but in my view, anonymity is the breeding ground for deception, and I don't want to be in that place.

strange because I use an alias for the same reason... I have spent many years building an online identity with this name... most of what you will find on the internet referencing this name is me .... I will answer to this name (as a matter of fact in comp programming circles I often only use the name Ang3lFir3 as no one has any clue who Eric Ridgeway is..... )

I agree with Atilla.... the internet is wild... we like it that way.... sink or swim....

The most common way that I personally filter informaton acrosss many differnet sources it to let the masses do the work for me.... I mostly crowd source information that I know I need.... If that won't work I consult a previous developed source and ask them.... I then attempt to verify by asking different questions of the masses....

@Bill -- Depends on what you are filtering I guess... somethings are hard science and some are anecdotal both have merrit.... (I've actually met the inventor of the wiki [wikipedia is a kind of wiki that wants to be an encyclopedia])... wikis are intended to be a place to collect information... and create relationships in the information.... it can be "facts" or it can be data... you take your pick.... How do I filter out the crap... *I* decide what is the crap and then i filter it out... It's how I learn .... It's what I have always done...

Take History for example.... do the history books all contain all the facts... and are they totally accurate... (do not dilute yourself by claiming they are... thats just insane) ...

@jkl -- whoa I musta hit a nerve.... you might but I'm a little old school my self ... (and yes I know what Nexis and Lexis are/were I have friends who have worked at LexisNexis) .... didn't mean to piss in ur wheaties... Free speech is still free for the idiots too...

Sorry if I offended you that wasn't the intent ... my intent was to basicly state that it is a demonstration of freedom of speech.... and that is a good thing! As to the bad bonsai stuff on the web.... I say we do our part and educate people.... the people who want mallsai to put on their TV will always want them and aren't the target audience for REAL bonsai... so lets teach the few among them that want to really know...

 

[jk_lewis]

My comment was not about the quality of information on the Internet in general, but the poor quality of BONSAI information specifically.

I know. But it reflects the quality of much of what you see on the I'net today. There are two maybe three sites I buy anything from on line. I use them a lot, but I will not use Joe Blow's site no matter what deals he, she or it offers.

 

[stacy allen muse]

personal opinion here... I think one finds what one is looking for.

If you know very little about Bonsai, you find sites that know very little about bonsai.

I would disagree and think there is an amazing amount of knowledge on the internet, and a vast amount of sellers that sell quality stuff.
Problem being... is that most who have been doing bonsai for some time statistically probally don't purchase as many trees over the internet, seeing that they would probally prefer to actually see the future tree before they purchase it... so catering to those either new or just starting off seems to make perfect logical sense.
This would fit the term "you will recieve one LIKE the one in the picture."

Besides, doesn't every other post here at B-Nut seems to say that the longer one does bonsai, or the better one gets, the fewer trees one seems to own???
Then if one was a seller, how many trees would one expect to sell those here... I would expect not many.

As far as a national bonsai association "seal of approval"... I personally would have little faith in such a concept, seeing that anyone who recieved one would instantly recieve more business,whether actually good or not. A practice that I feel, could be come easily corruptable, either thru politics or trying to help out oneself, or one's buddy.

Lastly, the only thing I know about "old fogies", is that they seem to bitch and moan alot, kinda like a bunch of old women !!!
Not to mention, they seem to be constantly reminding you of how old they are, all the time.

 

[Goon Salo]

i think a seal of approval from an association would be nice. it weeds out people like this guy. http://www.youtube.com/user/bonsaiwineguy ...this is his website http://sites.google.com/site/itsmarkp/ ....check link to past trees for sale

Every time I do a Google search for bonsai on the Internet (or bonsai stores, or bonsai shopping), about 3/4 of the results are junk. Forget mallsai - many of the trees I see don't even TRY to be bonsai; they are simply seedlings stuck in Chinese pots. Supplies are junk - cheapo gardening tools. Information is the most general bland gardening info that would quickly get you into trouble if you followed it blindly.

It almost makes me wish there was a national bonsai association "seal of approval" or something similar, that could be given to retailers and sites that at least "try" to support real bonsai art. Sticks in pots need not apply.

 

[raydomz]

i think a seal of approval from an association would be nice. it weeds out people like this guy. http://www.youtube.com/user/bonsaiwineguy ...this is his website http://sites.google.com/site/itsmarkp/ ....check link to past trees for sale

Oh god.

A bit disappointed there was no actual "wine review".

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Oh god.

A bit disappointed there was no actual "wine review".

WOW! glad I grabbed the domain name when I did...no nebari, no bonsai on that site

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I know. But it reflects the quality of much of what you see on the I'net today. There are two maybe three sites I buy anything from on line. I use them a lot, but I will not use Joe Blow's site no matter what deals he, she or it offers.

So promote those places and teach people their value..... obviously you have done a lot of work to determine that those places are reputable... I presume you support those businesses and we can all benefit from the experiences you have had.... those places that are sub-par will fade away eventually...

anyways the internet is a wonderful place.... (I'd be broke without it ) ... let's all do our best to help anyone new find the best of the best information....

 

[Vance Wood]

A bonsai association seems like it would be a good thing but think about it. There is an old adage that states power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The problem with associations is that they are made of people, people with opinions and agendas. This leaves the entire concept open to sellers having to become accountable to some group of people, that for one reason or another, maybe not even related to bonsai, can effect their business negatively or positively. Word of mouth is a far better resource. Some people are very set in their opinions about what a good source of bonsai material is and conversely what it is not. I have found that many who take these stands are not themselves correct, to give them the kind of power to critique someone else's business is, in my opinion, not a good way to find things out.

 

[John Ruger]

A major benefit of the net sites is that they allow communication of the bonsai craft over huge geographic areas. As with anything else, you'll have the good and the crap and there's no getting around that except by experience. I've always taken notice of bonsai blog sites and find that the link sites are a great way to communicate the reliability of vendors and provide helpful info. etc....I think too that we owe to one another what reliable information can be found via the net as well as experience. What's reliable and what's garbage? Well, I thought that's what we're here to do, help one another separate the two.

Vance makes a great point about associations, opinions and agendas. But, isn't that what this forum is in a loose sort of way? For many people, this method of communicating, via the forum, is their only outside bonsai-world contact. Some people don't belong to clubs and don't want to for different reasons, so this is their "word-of-mouth".

 

[Vance Wood]

A major benefit of the net sites is that they allow communication of the bonsai craft over huge geographic areas. As with anything else, you'll have the good and the crap and there's no getting around that except by experience. I've always taken notice of bonsai blog sites and find that the link sites are a great way to communicate the reliability of vendors and provide helpful info. etc....I think too that we owe to one another what reliable information can be found via the net as well as experience. What's reliable and what's garbage? Well, I thought that's what we're here to do, help one another separate the two.

Vance makes a great point about associations, opinions and agendas. But, isn't that what this forum is in a loose sort of way? For many people, this method of communicating, via the forum, is their only outside bonsai-world contact. Some people don't belong to clubs and don't want to for different reasons, so this is their "word-of-mouth".

Yes you are right it is and by asking questions of people you get the best answers without being influenced by motives other than an opinion on the question.

 

[Mike423]

i think a seal of approval from an association would be nice. it weeds out people like this guy. http://www.youtube.com/user/bonsaiwineguy ...this is his website http://sites.google.com/site/itsmarkp/ ....check link to past trees for sale

I found this guys video amusing. Funny how people with no real refined fundamental knowledge make the jump to teaching others (good that they want to share the hobby, bad in they give poor and cross productive information to others who are inexperienced). This guy must have obviously just recently begun the hobby himself. I love how he described certain aspects of his trees "I wanted to mimic large thick branch carrying branches", "its roots rather than strait... were not strait". Looks like this is one of those guys that reads a basic bonsai book and now considers himself a master.

 

[Dav4]

I found this guys video amusing. Funny how people with no real refined fundamental knowledge make the jump to teaching others (good that they want to share the hobby, bad in they give poor and cross productive information to others who are inexperienced). This guy must have obviously just recently begun the hobby himself. I love how he described certain aspects of his trees "I wanted to mimic large thick branch carrying branches", "its roots rather than strait... were not strait". Looks like this is one of those guys that reads a basic bonsai book and now considers himself a master.

Honestly, I think it's all a ploy to get girls.

 

[Klytus]

Hmmm,the essence of Bonzai.

 

[edprocoat]

A bonsai association seems like it would be a good thing but think about it. There is an old adage that states power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The problem with associations is that they are made of people, people with opinions and agendas. This leaves the entire concept open to sellers having to become accountable to some group of people, that for one reason or another, maybe not even related to bonsai, can effect their business negatively or positively. Word of mouth is a far better resource. Some people are very set in their opinions about what a good source of bonsai material is and conversely what it is not. I have found that many who take these stands are not themselves correct, to give them the kind of power to critique someone else's business is, in my opinion, not a good way to find things out.

Very true on all points! It leads towards the old pay our dues or your out of business route that is abused in many venues. I wonder how many practises that are popular these days in Bonsai culture that would have been "Verbotten" 30 to 100 years ago? Regulations thwart change and lead to dormancy in most aspects of life as well as art.

ed

 

[Jason]

Honestly, I think it's all a ploy to get girls.

Hmm...wonder how that's gonna work for him.

 

[Goon Salo]

he is a pnbc instructor alongside dan robinson. http://pnbca.com/instructors.html ...it says there he has been a member of the victoria bonsai club since 2002.

i would be pretty pissed off if i paid the guy a hundreds bucks to do a beginners workshop then find out a year later that what he taught me was junk.

I found this guys video amusing. Funny how people with no real refined fundamental knowledge make the jump to teaching others (good that they want to share the hobby, bad in they give poor and cross productive information to others who are inexperienced). This guy must have obviously just recently begun the hobby himself. I love how he described certain aspects of his trees "I wanted to mimic large thick branch carrying branches", "its roots rather than strait... were not strait". Looks like this is one of those guys that reads a basic bonsai book and now considers himself a master.

 

[stacy allen muse]

A bonsai association seems like it would be a good thing but think about it. There is an old adage that states power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The problem with associations is that they are made of people, people with opinions and agendas. This leaves the entire concept open to sellers having to become accountable to some group of people, that for one reason or another, maybe not even related to bonsai, can effect their business negatively or positively. Word of mouth is a far better resource. Some people are very set in their opinions about what a good source of bonsai material is and conversely what it is not. I have found that many who take these stands are not themselves correct, to give them the kind of power to critique someone else's business is, in my opinion, not a good way to find things out.

I worked for a long time in the Film Industry in Los Angeles, and at that time lived with my girlfriend. She worked for The Director's Guild of America as a personal assistant to ---- let's say some one high up, as to not get anyone in any trouble here. Well being the guild, alot of very famous directors either came in or out, or were personally on the board of trustees... to make along story short, they held very high persuasion over who actually won the awards for Best Director and Best Picture, so was it really much of a surprise when they themselves either won, or one of their buddies ??? Which fine ok, but what pisses me off, is that after the film has won, it is re-released back into the theaters for another couple of months, only to make how many numerous millions more... then onto DVD, etc..........

I guess if you help create the awarding ceremony in the first place you should pretty much be able to do what you want... I just wish they didn't make us feel that somehow it was all legit.