Why is there so much poor information about bonsai on the Internet?

[rockm]

"The fact that we pay more for an older and rarer specimen, then for a lesser material, does not make them a commodity. So, great bonsai is NOT a commodity. It has subjective value, some people may pay a lot more than others, and in some markets it may be worth much more than in others. And it's relatively rare. This is why is not a commodity."

This is a little contradictory, isn't it? If we pay more for an older rarer specimen because it's not "typical," then the remainder would have to be typical or pretty similar in order to set that one apart. The vast majority of bonsai out there ARE commodities, or very commodity-like, even at the top levels, with more refined trees simply falling into a separate, higher price and audience bracket. Pricing for top-level trees can be likened to the top-levels of other hobby markets, like baseball cards. There are a few cards that go for a lot of money, but millions that go for $1 or less. The top level can be said to be unique, with only single examples for some cards. All cards share the same form and similar composition, but history and provenance are keys to higher pricing...

I am playing devil's advocate here-but only a little. If you want a sobering reminder of how much your trees are worth, try to sell them, at a club auction, or heaven forbid, on the open market. Most will bring less than half what you paid --even the great ones. Sometimes you get lucky and the right buyer will come along (or you work hard to find them), but by and large, you're probably not going to get what you initially paid for most of your trees if you decide you want to turn them into cash.

 

[Vance Wood]

"The fact that we pay more for an older and rarer specimen, then for a lesser material, does not make them a commodity. So, great bonsai is NOT a commodity. It has subjective value, some people may pay a lot more than others, and in some markets it may be worth much more than in others. And it's relatively rare. This is why is not a commodity."

This is a little contradictory, isn't it? If we pay more for an older rarer specimen because it's not "typical," then the remainder would have to be typical or pretty similar in order to set that one apart. The vast majority of bonsai out there ARE commodities, or very commodity-like, even at the top levels, with more refined trees simply falling into a separate, higher price and audience bracket. Pricing for top-level trees can be likened to the top-levels of other hobby markets, like baseball cards. There are a few cards that go for a lot of money, but millions that go for $1 or less. The top level can be said to be unique, with only single examples for some cards. All cards share the same form and similar composition, but history and provenance are keys to higher pricing...

I am playing devil's advocate here-but only a little. If you want a sobering reminder of how much your trees are worth, try to sell them, at a club auction, or heaven forbid, on the open market. Most will bring less than half what you paid --even the great ones. Sometimes you get lucky and the right buyer will come along (or you work hard to find them), but by and large, you're probably not going to get what you initially paid for most of your trees if you decide you want to turn them into cash.

Sad but true. However we seem to have strayed from the original query of this thread, why is there such poor information on the INTERNET about bonsai?

 

[Attila Soos]

This is a little contradictory, isn't it? If we pay more for an older rarer specimen because it's not "typical," then the remainder would have to be typical or pretty similar in order to set that one apart.

We do not pay a high price for a exceptional specimen "because it is not typical". I can give you a god-awful bonsai that is not typical, but is also worthless.
No, we pay the high price because of its unique beauty and rareness. The other trees next to it may be also very unique, beautiful, and rare, but to a slightly less degree.

Yes, you can create price categories for everything, but that is not what makes a commodity. You can create price categories for Van Gogh paintings as well, but they are not commodities.

Again, you are missing the fact that a commodity has to be mass-produced. Some bonsai are mass-produced, and some are not. There are satsuki azalea fields in Japan, that mass-produce great looking azalea bonsai. One thousand of them may look almost the same: nice trunk, great taper, branch number one, branch number two, same cookie cutter. They may all sell for $1,000 apiece. That is a commodity: same price, same quality, same looks. They are commodities.

Then I can collect a 300 yr-old california juniper from the desert and after creating a very unique and original bonsai sell it for $1,000 on a club auction. Same price as the azaleas, but very different looking and original in design. That is not a commoditiy. Price alone does not make commodity. The fact that there are many other bonsai for the same price, does not make it commodity. It's unique beauty makes it an original piece, versus the mass-produced crowd.

 

[Attila Soos]

"I am playing devil's advocate here-but only a little. If you want a sobering reminder of how much your trees are worth, try to sell them, at a club auction, or heaven forbid, on the open market. Most will bring less than half what you paid --even the great ones. Sometimes you get lucky and the right buyer will come along (or you work hard to find them), but by and large, you're probably not going to get what you initially paid for most of your trees if you decide you want to turn them into cash.

I agree. It has a lot to do with the disposable income people have, at a certain time. A great bonsai may sell for a lot of money one day, and then, 5 years later, it may be difficult to sell it at all. It has to do with fashion, changing taste, demographics, and the general economy.

 

[Attila Soos]

Sad but true. However we seem to have strayed from the original query of this thread, why is there such poor information on the INTERNET about bonsai?

Oh, we answered that already.

 

[Vance Wood]

I agree. It has a lot to do with the disposable income people have, at a certain time. A great bonsai may sell for a lot of money one day, and then, 5 years later, it may be difficult to sell it at all. It has to do with fashion, changing taste, demographics, and the general economy.

Ahhh---you miss a big point my friend. Sometimes a bonsai loses value because of care. Sure; fashion, taste, demographics and ecomomy can, and do, play a role but even in a good market a master piece bonsai can be turned into a master mess bonsai in less than a year.

 

[Attila Soos]

Ahhh---you miss a big point my friend. Sometimes a bonsai loses value because of care. Sure; fashion, taste, demographics and ecomomy can, and do, play a role but even in a good market a master piece bonsai can be turned into a master mess bonsai in less than a year.

Well, sure, that can happen. But I was talking about scenarios when all other things being equal, bonsai can lose value due to socio/econimic conditions.

 

[HotAction]

Well... I've seen some nice mugos, but I haven't seen any nice arborvitae You want food for fodder that's a better one.

OK, here ya go. sorry about the quality

 

[Bill S]

Dave is that Suthins?

 

[rockm]

Arborvitae bonsai--eastern White cedar--thuja occidentalis--5th page, last one on the right--I think Reiner Goeble donated this one. He had quite a few spectacular white cedar. Wonder what happened to him...:
http://www.bonsai-nbf.org/site/north_american.html

 

[Smoke]

Not so fast.

The fact that we pay more for an older and rarer specimen, then for a lesser material, does not make them a commodity. So, great bonsai is NOT a commodity. It has subjective value, some people may pay a lot more than others, and in some markets it may be worth much more than in others. And it's relatively rare. This is why is not a commodity.

A commodity is something that is mass-produced, has standardized features (which is exactly why they can be mass-produced), and can be easily priced in a competitive market. In the case of commodities, their quality on the top level is very similar, so the only way they can compete, is pricing.
Mallsai is a commodity, for the above reasons. Great bonsai could never fit the above criteria.

Edit: There may be a miscommunication on the meaning of the word "commodity". Some people may use it as "everything that can be sold". But this is inaccurate, because then everything in life would be a commodity. The correct definition of the term uses "standardization", "mass-production", and "price-competitiveness" as the main criteria.

Wiki pedia says this about commodity:

"In economics, a commodity is the generic term for any marketable item produced to satisfy wants or needs. Economic commodities comprise goods and services.

The more specific meaning of the term commodity is applied to goods only. It is used to describe a class of goods for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative differentiation across a market."

 

[Attila Soos]

Wiki pedia says this about commodity:

"In economics, a commodity is the generic term for any marketable item produced to satisfy wants or needs. Economic commodities comprise goods and services.

The more specific meaning of the term commodity is applied to goods only. It is used to describe a class of goods for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative differentiation across a market."

Yeah, that's what I was alluding to, when I said that we are using commodity under different meanings. And wikipedia doesn't even elaborate on more specific meanings.

If we use it as "any marketable item", then of course, everything in this world can be a commodity, even the life of a person. But that's not what I was referring to.