Why japanese black pine?

[sorce]

Greetings!

I see that this is an old thread, so I hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears.

I have a pretty large, 25-year-old, non-bonsai Pinus remota in Dallas. I can tell you that I had no success growing this species until I built a raised bed filled with large stones to plant it in. In this climate it would not grow grow in water-retentive soil. In addition, P. remota is commonly described as growing in limestone, but actually it grows in very siliceous limestone--massive chert beds, in fact. In my experience it prefers a growing medium with perfect drainage, a near-neutral pH, and a high silica content.

It's a beautiful tree with a habit that should naturally lend itself to Bonsai if its large, diffuse rooting habi and its need for extremely good drainage are accommodated.

Good luck!

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[markyscott]

Complete baloney! Every one of these grows very well here in zone 8.

Surely you are joking. We were talking South Texas. South Texas zone 8 is different than Eugene zone 8. Wish it wasn't 6 months into the growing season and after 3 months of 100 degree plus weather in August. And STILL 3 months of summer to go. Glad it is on those beautiful sunny days in February. Having moved to Houston after years of living in the PNW I know.

 

[markyscott]

Greetings!

I see that this is an old thread, so I hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears.

I have a pretty large, 25-year-old, non-bonsai Pinus remota in Dallas. I can tell you that I had no success growing this species until I built a raised bed filled with large stones to plant it in. In this climate it would not grow grow in water-retentive soil. In addition, P. remota is commonly described as growing in limestone, but actually it grows in very siliceous limestone--massive chert beds, in fact. In my experience it prefers a growing medium with perfect drainage, a near-neutral pH, and a high silica content.

It's a beautiful tree with a habit that should naturally lend itself to Bonsai if its large, diffuse rooting habi and its need for extremely good drainage are accommodated.

Good luck!

Thanks for the info JeffinNYC. I've always wondered about Texas Pinyon. They grow as far south as Chihuahua so can definitely take the heat and the 10 month growing season. I've never tried one, but I'm glad you've had success in Dallas.

 

[0soyoung]

Surely you are joking. We were talking South Texas. South Texas zone 8 is different than Eugene zone 8. Wish it wasn't 6 months into the growing season and after 3 months of 100 degree plus weather in August. And STILL 3 months of summer to go. Glad it is on those beautiful sunny days in February. Having moved to Houston after years of living in the PNW I know.

USDA zones are only for cold hardiness and irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.
The relevant point you are making is about Heat Zones.

 

[markyscott]

USDA zones are only for cold hardiness and irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.
The relevant point you are making is about Heat Zones.

I was specifically discussing the climate in OUR area with Txhorticulture. He lives in San Antonio and I live in Houston.

...The list of native North American pines that could adapt to our zone is also short. ..

The operative word in the statement is OUR area - I was specifically referring to South Texas.

But your point is fair enough - heat zones are a better, although still incomplete, description of the point I was making two years ago in this conversation. But I disagree that a description of the winter time cold is irrelevant. The point is this - it get's cold enough in Texas to trigger dormancy in most northern plants. We can get to 25-30 degrees in Houston just like in Anacortes or Eugene. What's different is that it can be 80 degrees the following week. And 50 degrees the next. It's the weekly or daily bouncing around between cold and warm temperatures during what passes for our winter that limits the reliable duration of prolonged dormancy. I'd be surprised if we had more than 2 weeks of days below 40 degrees this past winter. But those days were separated by lots of really balmy ones. Many plants do fine here but many others don't. The only thing you can do is try, but you have to pick your battles. I try to pick mine with plants that are native to areas without prolonged dormant seasons.

 

[eferguson1974]

How would slash pines like in Fl work out down there and for bonsai? They tollerate and thrive in the heat in Fl, so maybe they would be good. The needles are kinda big maybe. Id be happy to send local pine seeds from CR. I have no idea about the species but they grow cool bark with deep fissures and have needles maybe an inch or two shorter than slash pines. I never noticed cones but I will look.
Does anyone use Norfolk Island pines? They take the heat well and can survive dry season here. Maybe they would make a nice formal upright since thats how they grow. I might be able to get those here.

 

[markyscott]

How would slash pines like in Fl work out down there and for bonsai? They tollerate and thrive in the heat in Fl, so maybe they would be good. The needles are kinda big maybe. Id be happy to send local pine seeds from CR. I have no idea about the species but they grow cool bark with deep fissures and have needles maybe an inch or two shorter than slash pines. I never noticed cones but I will look.
Does anyone use Norfolk Island pines? They take the heat well and can survive dry season here. Maybe they would make a nice formal upright since thats how they grow. I might be able to get those here.

I've seen one slash pine as bonsai - it was owned and styled by Guy Guidry. He had it in his nursery in Covington. It was very nice.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Pinus Densiflora is my favourite....by far the most feminine pine Ive seen

 

[Potawatomi13]

Surely you are joking. We were talking South Texas. South Texas zone 8 is different than Eugene zone 8. Wish it wasn't 6 months into the growing season and after 3 months of 100 degree plus weather in August. And STILL 3 months of summer to go. Glad it is on those beautiful sunny days in February. Having moved to Houston after years of living in the PNW I know.

Reading all posts brings me to see your not inconsequential problem. Sorry you had to relocate there. Being a native here we really are blessed in the many temperate trees we can keep that do poorly in most southern and some northern locations. Personally do not favor any cold weather but many trees do so must appreciate for that. Most winters we have several nights here in the teens and maybe sub teen temps and several daytimes that stay below 30 and sometimes below 20 and have seen several times sub zero but fortunately RARELY. Zone seems not to agree well as Zone 8 considering this. You have difficult dilemma so personally suggest consulting local Bonsai folks what will do well there? What about CA inland but not mountain growing trees? Much heat but not extreme low cold temps I think.

 

[markyscott]

Reading all posts brings me to see your not inconsequential problem. Sorry you had to relocate there. Being a native here we really are blessed in the many temperate trees we can keep that do poorly in most southern and some northern locations. Personally do not favor any cold weather but many trees do so must appreciate for that. Most winters we have several nights here in the teens and maybe sub teen temps and several daytimes that stay below 30 and sometimes below 20 and have seen several times sub zero but fortunately RARELY. Zone seems not to agree well as Zone 8 considering this. You have difficult dilemma so personally suggest consulting local Bonsai folks what will do well there? What about CA inland but not mountain growing trees? Much heat but not extreme low cold temps I think.

Well, I've been living here for almost 20 years now. By this time I am one of the local bonsai folks. And I lived in California for a number of years too - both in the Bay Area and the Central Valley. In fact, I once had an offer to join the faculty there in Eugene and turned it down to for my job here in Houston. I have no regrets about living in Houston (just don't ask me again in August). And as much as I prefer the climate and mountains in California and Oregon to the heat, humidity and plains of south Texas, I have no interest in moving to either. I'll be retiring in a few years and both were easy cuts from my list of possible destinations.

But a consequence of living here is that some trees do well and others are not worth trying. Others do much better here than elsewhere in the country. There are a few pines native to this area (Loblolly, Shortleaf, Longleaf), but the list is short as is the list of others that will do well here. Black Pine is one, but I'm sure there are others. Mexican Pinyon might do great, as an example. Its native range extends as far south as Veracruz in Mexico. That's what I look for when I'm trying to pick a new tree to try - one that is native to an area where there is some heat and unreliable cold in winter. Then I pick up a seedling and grow it on my bench for a few years before I get a good one.

Junipers are a bit of a different story. There are 13 junipers native to the US. Of those thirteen, eight are native to Texas. Ashe, Redberry and ERC are common, but Rocky Mountain, Alligator, One-seed, Drooping, and Rose-fruited junipers grow here in restricted ranges as well. Still others like the California juniper can adapt to our climate well. Many of the chinensis varieties do well also - Shimpaku and parsonii do great, as an example.

So there you go. Trade-offs everywhere and you pick your battles.

 

[arcina]

In addition to what others have mentioned already, what I like about JBP is that younger ones I've worked on seem to be almost idiot proof. Mine have endured an incredible amount of torture, yet they're still alive and well. I did a crazy bend this year one one pine; the branch is almost broken completely off, but it's still green and alive. I intentionally broke it to make the sharp bend.

I have been collecting Pinyon (edulis) for the last 2 years and they are an incredible tree. They are very, very hard to collect because they really twisted, old, with a lot of deadwood grows in sandstone so getting enough roots is really hard. The needle length is really nice and the bark of the old ones is very flaky. I will like to see this tree much more utilize in bonsai but I do not know of any source for old ones.


This is one that I really like. It is different and quite old. (Photo attached).

If anyone is interested in some pinyons. I have some posted in my website and I am expecting to keep adding in the future. I need to keep my collection under control so I will keep adding more trees as I run out of space.

www.chobonsaiyamadori.com

 

[JeffinNYC]

Here is a picture of my Pinus remota in its raised bed. This is from 2015. Tomorrow I plan to get a picture from an angle that more clearly shows the natural branching habit of the tree. It would almost undoubtedly require an oversized pot if grown as a Bonsai.

 

[JeffinNYC]

Pinus remota foliage and branching structure:

 

[JeffinNYC]

I believe that P. remota could be maintained as a bonsai specimen in warm climates, especially as a 3-6 ft. tall specimen. Mine is not maintained in accordance with traditional Japanese gardening aesthetics—I have left branches that are too low, I don’t pinch back the candles, and nearly every possible viewing angle has branches facing directly forward.

An aside: in the native habitat of P. remota, there are carpet-like species of Selaginella that would (and do, in the wild) pair well with it as groundcovers.

I have not grown bonsai since the 1990’s. Back then I had great success with Acer barbatum, Salvia greggii, and Juniperus pinchotii. I attempted Liquidambar orientalis, but mine always looked like tiny, sickly seedlings. Ilex opaca was an abject failure because when grown in pots, the roots freeze and die at temperatures of about 30°F. When I moved to NYC in 2000, I gave my J. pinchotii and L. orientalis away, planted the S. greggii in the ground, and left the A. barbatum. The A. barbatum died the next year from a June bug grub infestation after the outside lights were left on overnight for all of spring.

 

[JeffinNYC]

I was specifically discussing the climate in OUR area with Txhorticulture. He lives in San Antonio and I live in Houston.



The operative word in the statement is OUR area - I was specifically referring to South Texas.

But your point is fair enough - heat zones are a better, although still incomplete, description of the point I was making two years ago in this conversation. But I disagree that a description of the winter time cold is irrelevant. The point is this - it get's cold enough in Texas to trigger dormancy in most northern plants. We can get to 25-30 degrees in Houston just like in Anacortes or Eugene. What's different is that it can be 80 degrees the following week. And 50 degrees the next. It's the weekly or daily bouncing around between cold and warm temperatures during what passes for our winter that limits the reliable duration of prolonged dormancy. I'd be surprised if we had more than 2 weeks of days below 40 degrees this past winter. But those days were separated by lots of really balmy ones. Many plants do fine here but many others don't. The only thing you can do is try, but you have to pick your battles. I try to pick mine with plants that are native to areas without prolonged dormant seasons.

The AHS heat zone maps are a little bit useful, but not much. They are determined by the annual number of days with a high temp above 30°C. This puts Wichita Falls in a hotter zone than Galveston. And yet Wichita Falls is cool enough to grow lilacs, but Galveston is too hot for bearded irises. A better “heat zone” indicator would be average summertime minimums or July morning dewpoints.

Even in Dallas, far north of San Antonio and Houston in z8a, Japanese black pines are generally unhealthy, and prone to sudden, quick death from disease. They’re barely sold any more.

 

[markyscott]

...Even in Dallas, far north of San Antonio and Houston in z8a, Japanese black pines are generally unhealthy, and prone to sudden, quick death from disease. They’re barely sold any more...

Bummer to hear. I’ll have to let all my black pines know that they’re days are numbered.

S

 

[Clicio]

Bummer to hear. I’ll have to let all my black pines know that they’re days are numbered.

Me too, at Brazil's equivalent of zone 11.
Better, I will not tell them, so they continue to thrive here, as always.

 

[Anthony]

Zone 13 b ------ seed ---- 30 years old.
Still alive.
J.B.pine Tropicalis
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

The AHS heat zone maps are a little bit useful, but not much. They are determined by the annual number of days with a high temp above 30°C. This puts Wichita Falls in a hotter zone than Galveston. And yet Wichita Falls is cool enough to grow lilacs, but Galveston is too hot for bearded irises. A better “heat zone” indicator would be average summertime minimums or July morning dewpoints.

Even in Dallas, far north of San Antonio and Houston in z8a, Japanese black pines are generally unhealthy, and prone to sudden, quick death from disease. They’re barely sold any more.

I guess I better inform the Smiths in Dallas. They have some of the best JBP in Texas. (Maybe I can convince them to sell them to me!). Lol!!!

Really!!! The stuff you can find onthe Internet these days! It’s getting harder and harder to distinguish between real and mis information!

 

[twisted trees]

I can tell you why YOU'RE probably going to like it.

- You live in zone 8b. JBP is native to you're horticultural zone. In fact, it is native to zone 10.
- The list of classic pines that won't do well or will grow with difficulty in zone 8b and 9 is long. Mugo, Scots, Ponderosa, Japanese White Pine, Austrian, etc. are unproven in our area. I know people who keep ponderosa and JWP as far south as zone 8a, but I don't know anyone who has successfully grown any further south. I know many (including me) who have tried.
- The list of pines native to our area is short and somewhat unproven as bonsai. Loblolly, Slash, Longleaf, and Shortleaf. I think loblolly could be successful. Their needles reduce well and they back bud readily. Don't take to repotting well though. I've seen one slash pine as a bonsai - it looks like that could work as well.
- The list of native North American pines that could adapt to our zone is also short. Maybe Monterey? Virginia?

So you see, although there are many species of pine out there, there are not many that will grow where you live. And many of the remaining have a great deal to be worked out before we can get reliable and reproducible results. JBP grows reliably well in the Texas heat. It enjoys full sun, warm summers, and a long growing season - all of which we have in plenty. It's care and maintenance is well known and timing for maintenance in our area is well understood.

Scott

A most excellent explanation.