Yamadori elm advice and prospect

Txhorticulture

Chumono
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I collected this cedar elm this morning. It was a Herculean task in 95 degree heat. I dug it out of clay and rock, but I got a nice amount of root material. How short should I make the trunk?

The second picture is another cedar elm i spotted after i dug mine. It has a very interesting trunk. I may get that one this winter. But next time I'm brining help.
 

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Your timing is off and I hope it makes it. I usually collect cedar elm in spring (before bud break) and have a very decent success rate.

The trunk is very straight...I usually cut those 3x the diameter, unless you plan to use some for carving later or want a straight trunk tree.

Good luck!
 
Style

Yes, I know it's not the best time.... But I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I have a hunch it makes it.

As for styling, I'm not sure if I'm going for a natural representation like the attached image or something more 'stylized'.

Probably more or less natural for this one. If I can collect the specimen with dramatic "s" trunk i will get creative with that one.

Where do you buy large bonsai pots? I bought one of the largest ones at the nursery down the road and it isn't as big as I want, and it was pricey.....
 

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I'm glad you left the second one in the ground. That's the much better find. Please don't rush the collection. Wait till early spring and yank it. Let it grow a season to collect strength. I've lost way too much precious material by mistimed digs. Save yourself some heartache.

Cheers,

B
 
Where do you buy large bonsai pots? I bought one of the largest ones at the nursery down the road and it isn't as big as I want, and it was pricey.....

Here at B-Nut, eBay, locally (Craigslist), from artists themselves (Sara Rayner, Erin, etc.), shows, club auctions, everywhere...

Good ones are not cheap (and the bigger are more so) unless you get lucky. SR for one price her pots by the (inch of) largest width, then add for glazing. Rounds are cheapest, then oval, then rectangles/squares. I think most follow the same formula.
 
I can see an formal/informal upright with your tree in several years. Some of my favorite trees are formal uprights or have portions of straight trunks. It conveys a strong image.

And how dare you not have a Shiner for scale next to that tree?! A Heineken can kill a Texas tree all by itself! :cool:
 
Goodness! Why is everyone so impatient to do it NOW these days?

Is the world about to end? One person wants to repot, another wants to dig up in 98 degree heat, someone else wants to . . .

Patience . . . and anticipation . . . go hand in hand. (And then, I've never had much joy in digging up telephone poles, either.)
 
Because I want to...

As for doing it now .... Im off of work and i want to. Plus this way, assuming the tree lives, it will use stored energy to regrow fibrous roots starting now, it will start sending out new shoots as soon as it has some efficient roots in the pot, then in fall those roots will elongate in the container (not in the field where they would be lost for a dig in spring). By doing it now i get the benefit of the rest of our long south texas growing season. If i dug the same tree February id be starting from scratch then. There is almost no foliage on the tree, it's not losing water to transpiration. Plus this species is known for being amenable to digging and transplanting. I wouldn't dig a pinyon pine or big tooth maple now, but ill chance this one.

So even if conventional wisdom is right and the tree would be marginally more likely to survive the late winter / early spring dig i don't mind rolling the dice so to speak because I'll know this one is dead before late winter early spring and I can dig up another. All I've lost is my effort and i need the exercise anyway. But if I'm right (and I'm usually right) im basically an entire growing season ahead this way.

As for your telephone pole remark, on one hand bonsai artists want trees to represent the species in nature, on the other, some people think normal looking isn't interesting. This native species normally grows straight trunks. Sorry you don't care for it. It's natural. I'll get the curved one next.
 
A wonderful thread on hubris and what not to do.

Can I see an example of a tree you have collected in these same conditions which has survived?

I'm prepared to be incredibly impressed.... truly. I'm also prepared to be terribly sad for a tree which may have given it's life for the sake of exercise.

I am not given to sarcasm, and I apologize for the title of my post should you impress me deeply by your example that has inspired your hunch over horticulture.

Mystified,

Victrinia
 
V,

I collected a big azalea (soon to be removed and trashed anyway) on June 25, 2012 at 106*F weather and it survived. I divided into 3 separate plants now.
http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?8324-Urban-Yamadori-Azalea

Oops wrong thread...try this one... http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?13989-When-to-repot-Azalea-(George-L-Tabor-NOT-satsuki)

It is not August but not an elm either. We actually get a 2nd burst of growth right about now here in TX. This elm may survive given proper after care but I agree w/ you that the odds are stacked against it and should have been left alone until spring.

I still wish him luck. :)
 
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Look lady....

I am given to sarcasm so let me thank you for your condescension. It is greatly appreciated and super helpful. It's only a lesson in 'hubris and what not to do' if it fails. I'll update the thread with pictures of this tree when and if it starts to grow.

Internet forums like this can be fun and informative, it's unfortunate some people there have to be rude. In my opinion snarky little posts like that are really inappropriate in a 'new to bonsai' forum.

Have a terrible day lady.
 
Dario....

Azalea can tolerate summer repots. So I do thank you for asking me to be more specific..... though what you did was for mercy more than anything. FYI your photo links are dead.

Ulmus.... collected mid-summer in strangling heat. That's what I'm looking to see thriving. :)

V
 
Another summer dig...

The japanese maple i dug a month ago, much more picky here in texas than native cedar elm, is alive, it's growing new white roots and even a few leaves.....

Pictures already on this forum. I realize its much smaller than the elm. This was a tall thin tree maybe 12, 13 feet tall. Even if it dies (i really doubt it will) we don't need to mourn it's passing. There are a bunch more. It's not like i felled an old growth sequoia.

Information about the forgiving nature of this tree is ubiquitous on the internet. If it were any tougher it would be a nuisance here, like hackberry....
 
As for doing it now .... Im off of work and i want to. Plus this way, assuming the tree lives, it will use stored energy to regrow fibrous roots starting now, it will start sending out new shoots as soon as it has some efficient roots in the pot, then in fall those roots will elongate in the container (not in the field where they would be lost for a dig in spring). By doing it now i get the benefit of the rest of our long south texas growing season. If i dug the same tree February id be starting from scratch then. There is almost no foliage on the tree, it's not losing water to transpiration. Plus this species is known for being amenable to digging and transplanting. I wouldn't dig a pinyon pine or big tooth maple now, but ill chance this one.

So even if conventional wisdom is right and the tree would be marginally more likely to survive the late winter / early spring dig i don't mind rolling the dice so to speak because I'll know this one is dead before late winter early spring and I can dig up another. All I've lost is my effort and i need the exercise anyway. But if I'm right (and I'm usually right) im basically an entire growing season ahead this way.

As for your telephone pole remark, on one hand bonsai artists want trees to represent the species in nature, on the other, some people think normal looking isn't interesting. This native species normally grows straight trunks. Sorry you don't care for it. It's natural. I'll get the curved one next.
The highlighted portion is my favorite part of this entire thread. Why would someone who is "usually right" post questions in a New to Bonsai Forum?:confused: I find this interesting and confusing all at the same time.
 
I'll tell you why Dave

Because I wasn't asking about your or anyone else's opinions about what I DID. I was asking about making it a bonsai tree.

What is interesting to me is why you would post if you don't have anything constructive to say. The reason, whether you know it or not, is that you derive gratification from criticizing people. And people like that really aren't unhappy with others theyre unhappy with themselves. Classic bully psychology.

And it's safe bullying, on the internet. You're a real tough dude. Thank you for your worthless response to my question.
 
When someone does something quite beyond the pale... then replies in unjustified confidence he has a hunch it'll be fine... well that does tend to define hubris at it's best. Regardless of the outcome.

If you speak as if you have ancient Chinese wisdom, you shouldn't be surprised at being asked for examples of your successes. I was sincere in my comment that I'm not given to sarcasm. I was also sincere that I was quite prepared to be impressed.

For my part I will acknowledge that I should apologize for the fact that I clicked into this thread from the front page without realizing which sub-forum it's in. That is indeed an important distinction. I do apologize for not knowing which forum section your post was in. I would have likely had a more tolerant sounding reaction to your thread and subsequent comments of hunches and theories why this will work. But some humility on your part for understanding that hunches don't make for good bonsai would also be grand.

I will give you an important piece of advice, since this is the new to bonsai forum - and even should you ignore this comment entirely, benefits the whole. When working with collected material.... Don't put the cart before the horse... let it live before planning it's life or imagining how you'll design it. This is often the hardest thing for people to grasp when working with collected trees... wait.

A collected tree often has to wait for years to get into a pot... so don't worry about that. I wouldn't move it out of the container you've put it in until at least it's second dormancy cycle (Fall of 2015)... and even then any work would only be to move it into a better container, with minimal root tampering.

The questions and approach I would advise in posting threads like this in the future is pretty simple.... having made the decision to collect in the hardest season for survival... ask how to care for it and best insure it's life.

There are a couple things you can do to work with trees in summer stress... sphagnum moss as a top dressing is very helpful.... but also depending if you can't be there to mist it several times a day over the coming months, then you should 'diaper' the trunk. This is accomplished by using absorbent strips of cloth (like towels) and wrapping all the trunk and main branches that you effectively can. Keep this damp at all times. The tree is able to transpire through the cambium layer and will allow the roots some time to recover. Wire is often used to secure the diapering material to the tree. A single wrap with a twist is enough to secure ends.

Also I'm not sure what soil medium you used, but straight pumice would be the best thing for it. If you have any, repot it into that immediately. I take it from your post that you just did all this work several hours ago. So taking that action right now would be fine. It would be detrimental in the near future though, so don't bother if you don't have any.

There are water soluable root enhancers with mycorrhizae you could water with which will also help promote root growth and health. I use this.....

It's called Root Zone

Sincerely,

Victrinia
 
Wow, Tex, you really know how to make an entrance!

I can't give you any advice on your tree. I hope it makes it. You have irritated some of the better experts on this forum, who may not want to give you any advice in the future.

Your fellow Texan, Dario, has collected tons of material from your area. You would be well served to listen to what he has to say about collecting.
 
Because I wasn't asking about your or anyone else's opinions about what I DID. I was asking about making it a bonsai tree.

It seems you might not grasp how one makes the other pretty pointless, when not done with due consideration. I'm not picking on you... I'm trying to take it to the root issue. There's a reason these things are not done. When I was new, I used to comfort myself with the axiom of "The path to great bonsai is paved with dead trees."

This was in the phase where I didn't understand that horticulture has to trump art. First and forever. It was a bunch of twaddle I told myself in my careless, and ignorant enthusiasm. Mind you.... I'm castigating myself at the moment, and making no inference to you.

Another friend said once... and I can't remember who... if a tree in your care dies... it isn't a mystery. You killed it.

Since I came to understand that... I autopsy every tree I've lost over the years... I lose few now. And when it happens now... I figure out why... and stop that from happening again. I don't lack courage to do what needs to be done, but I never treat the life of a tree lightly. It's a sacred obligation when one comes into my keeping.

V
 
Thank you

Now i feel bad for being testy. It's in 3 parts turface to one part coarse fir bark. Drains very fast. So ill water it liberally hose it down frequently. I don't have intermittent mist. But I'm a teacher off of work for a few more weeks so I can baby it for a while.

I certainly don't want to kill trees. I'm a long time plant collector (buying not digging) and have a lot of experience with containerized trees / plants. Only just recently started toying with the idea of formal bonsai.
 
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