Yamadori - Etiquette and Philosophy.

[wireme]

I have personally planted about one and a half million trees for forestry reforestation and mine reclamation sites. I shudder to think of the environmental degradation this might have caused

But seriously these were all planted according to prescriptions made by professionals, theoretically the right trees in the right places. I agree the wilynily planting of anything anywhere could lead to problems.

About 100 000 of the trees I've planted were on Vancouver Island, hopefully some become good bonsai material someday.

I don't really see deforestation or habitat loss being an issue given that collectible trees are so few and far between. I definitely think there is good reason to have concerns regarding the removal of any venerable old trees from their habitat. They've been there a long time and will not be there again for a long time even if a seedling is planted in their place.

 

[rockm]

"I have personally planted about one and a half million trees for forestry reforestation and mine reclamation sites. I shudder to think of the environmental degradation this might have caused

But seriously these were all planted according to prescriptions made by professionals, theoretically the right trees in the right places. I agree the wilynily planting of anything anywhere could lead to problems."

I should clarify what I mean, as some are equating reforestation and reclamation efforts as comparable to what we're doing collecting yamadori.

There is a significant difference between reforestation on broadly cleared sites and disturbed areas and what we're talking about in yamadori collection. In reforestation and reclamation efforts, if I'm not mistaken, the aim is to cover acres or square miles of land that has been largely de-forested---as in not alot of trees still alive there.

In the case of most instances of yamadori collection, the surrounding area hasn't been cleared of trees. There is usually significant tree growth around trees that are collected, at least more trees than would be in a forest fire zone or a strip mining operation. That means there can be reason to want to preserve the existing tree growth and habitat. Introducing new, unassociated trees into that kind of environment could lead to many issues, diseases from local nurseries included.

 

[Gene Deci]

I don't really see deforestation or habitat loss being an issue given that collectible trees are so few and far between. I definitely think there is good reason to have concerns regarding the removal of any venerable old trees from their habitat. They've been there a long time and will not be there again for a long time even if a seedling is planted in their place.

Very nicely put. If there were some way to assure that the venerable old trees were treated with the respect they deserve (hardly ever collected, if at all) then it is hard to see why there would be any objections to collecting. I think most of us love trees so much that we can be let loose in the woods without much danger.

 

[Dan W.]

I'm interested in hearing more on your thoughts about these "venerable old trees." Isn't this age and character what people seek most in bonsai?... Isn't this also what inspired bonsai in the first place?

I absolutely agree that they should be given respect, but to say that these trees should never be collected seems a bit too far. As for the ecosystem, a full sized tree growing 10' away directly in the ground will contribute far more in terms of seed, oxygen and anything else.

When collecting older trees in the areas that I collect, there is easily a 100 to 1 ratio of "old venerable trees" to old collectible trees. So to say that this somehow harms anything doesn't make sense to me.

If our goal is to create/or accentuate beautiful works of art in theses trees and share them with the world...isn't that honoring them? How is this a bad thing?

 

[ghues]

Graham, I do not disagree with you at all that coordinated efforts to improve our forests should be a high priority, and the bonsai community could contribute very much to this.

As for seedling being returned to the forest, I think rockm's concern is valid. Also, as I'm out collecting I notice what appear to be genetic differences in the same specie of tree within less than a mile of different stands. I don't remember the terms the forestry rep here used... "genotype" may have been one, but I'm not trained in these areas. I also think a tree that grows from seed in the harsh environment where I collect will probably be hardier and less prone to disease than one that was consistently watered and fertilized in my yard for a year or two. Not to mention that those trees will have been in close proximity to other trees from all around the world. -- you have far more training/experience than I do, so I would very much like to hear your response to these concerns.

Dan- Point taken - here is the kicker, we collect seed from the areas we harvest and I know of some commerical seed collectors who get permission to collect seeds outside of our "traditional forest lands" (example Whitebark pine - not a commerical species). We've also have seed orchard programs that have developed over the last 60 years and they provide the bulk of our current seed. However if we collect the seed from the areas we want to plant it back too..... then all the genetics that its developed over the 1000's years its been there are available in the new seedling (therfore its adaptable to the environment we place it in).


As for a coordinated effort; I think there are many ways we can and possibly even do contribute: 1) Simply showing our bonsai at shows in public areas raises appreciation and awareness of these trees. 2) I think a great addition to shows may be classes taught by local forestry experts about the forest and it's enhabitants. This would be a great way to teach the public, and I believe that many bonsai lovers would be very interested in classes like this. 3) We should highly encourage each other to work with our local forestry departments; whether that means helping to log information while we're in the field, or volunteering for re-forestation projects-- in which case the concerns stated above will have already been professionally studied and addressed.

Some great ideas.

If we are pro-active in working with the professionals such as yourself, I believe we can do a lot of good. But if we all just start trying to do our own thing without a full understanding of what the forestry management teams are doing we could also cause more harm than good.

Thats my other point we as a Bonsai community should do something collectively and we as individuals contribute to the greater cause.
Cheers
Graham

 

[ghues]

Wow, no need to call me an ass...maybe you should have included this info in your original post. It almost seems you deliberately withheld it with the intent of throwing it in the face of those who were quite likely to respond as I did. By the way, cuttings can still introduce new pathogens into the local ecosystem. I am officially sorry I responded to this thread...I feel like I was baited...

Apologies, please forgive me...... as that was not my intention. I did not call you that, just spelled the word you used differently.
I also did not bait anyone..... I had not intention to do so....all I wanted to do is start an exchange of ideas on the subject of putting something back to the areas we collect.
I agree that cuttings can do that........ but my backgorund being forestry and working directly with forest seedling nurseries maybe different than yours so my definition of cutting and yours come from a differnt background and we see the word cuttings from different perspectives.
I didn't want to write a book on this but will try and answer the questions that folks like you offer up.
Cheers and hopefully no hard feelings
Graham

 

[Poink88]

Poink88, please bare with me please, I'm not insulting you but believe that your ideas and exposure to this are somewhat limited, perhaps
I know a lot about wildfire management as I've been a forester for 37 years.

Wow, no need to call me an ass...maybe you should have included this info in your original post. It almost seems you deliberately withheld it with the intent of throwing it in the face of those who were quite likely to respond as I did. ...

+1

Nice move ghues.

 

[ghues]

One problem with this concept, which on the surface of it I agree, there is the problem of introducing foreign and or invasive species. One thing that tweaks the noses of official horticultural people is putting things into the environment that do not occur there naturally.

Hey Vance,
My intention isn't to have every bonsainut grow his own seedlings and plant them out but to do this within an organized and recognized approach. Forestry is a big industry around the world and in my arena we've got pretty good at it.

I work for a forest company that operates on public land, where the legislation demands that we have a 10 seed supply of ECOLOGICAL suitable species for the areas we harvest furthermore we plant up to 8 different species from 0'-5500'.
Our whole province is divided into seed zones (based on decades of research) and we can only transfer seed and plant within these zones (both latitude and longitude) .
Our future forests will not be made up of fast growing species (OK 50-100 years is fast depending on some scales) and they may well become commercial but that depends on future markets which we can't predict today….so we use an ecological based forest management approach. The species that are planted are suitable to the ecosystems where they are planted.
So my intention would be to plant a mugo where a mugo was taken and that seedling was from seed that was appropriate for that site. (had to use mugo as I know you love them)
Cheers
Graham

 

[ghues]

"lend her a hand when we as humans continually take without giving anything back."

The issue I have with replanting trees that are alien to an area you've collected in is that you may indeed be giving something back, something that's potentially a problem. If you plant seedlings grown in a nursery in that area, you're opening up a very viable source of disease. This can be especially true in areas that are already vulnerable to disease.

Take Texas for example. The live oaks in that state are under siege by an oak wilt infestation that's killing very very old trees. It spread like wildfire and is almost impossible to treat. The infection has shown up in nursery trees. There are similar stories on other species and other diseases throughout the U.S. What you're suggesting can add to that problem.

Hey Rockm, I understand your point as we have the White Pine blister rust here....it was introduced in the early part of the 20th century (from Russia if my memory serves me correctly... which is waining a lot these days lol) but research and the scientific community has found some families that are resistent to it, so collectively the reseachers did their thing and we now have a resistent strain which we collect seed from... grow and plant resistent seedlings. I would hope that something like this is being tried for the live Oaks in Texas.
If you read some of my other posts you will see that I'm proposing that we use ecologically suitable species which in the case of the live Oak might be another native species that grows within the same ecological footprint.
Cheers Graham

 

[ghues]

I only have about 20 yamadori, a very tiny fraction of my total collection. The rest are collected seedlings and nursery material grown in the ground for decades, plus a small number of purchased, semi-finished bonsai.

Here in California, yamadori collecting has virtually zero influence on the environment. This is my own assessment, based on my hiking trips arund the state. There are critically vulnerable areas, where collecting is strictly forbidden, and people abide by the law for the most part. And there are healty, vigorous ecosystems, where collecting a small number of small trees has made no dent in the flora, whatsoever.

So, at the moment, bonsai is a non-factor in the regions I am familiar with.

Hi Attila,
I think that it might be bigger than that as its being going on for decades now, but I think you missed my point, if we can one why not put one back? It may not be practical everywhere and yes its nothing compared to the deforestation of land for agriculture, asphelt, concrete and the like but every little bit helps NO?
I believe you lived up this way - I've been to many different known collecting sites and the number of holes amazes me.
Cheers

 

[Dan W.]

Graham I'm all for helping any way possible. I've been talking with our local FS department to try an find anything I can do while I'm out collecting. So far I've just been asked to keep an eye out for bugs/disease or anything else interesting...lol. But I'm hopeful they'll have more I can do in the future. -- During my homeschooling my dad and I volunteered with the local FS Biologist every Wednesday to do any field work he might need done. We did everything from scouting for Big Horn Sheep and eagles to counting droppings at a grouse lek. These are some of my favorite memories from that time.

There has been a lot of study on our local limber pine populations lately, because they have also been naturally resistant to the white pine blister rust. Hopefully we can beat this thing before it destroys too many ancient trees!

 

[Gene Deci]

I'm interested in hearing more on your thoughts about these "venerable old trees." Isn't this age and character what people seek most in bonsai?... Isn't this also what inspired bonsai in the first place?

I absolutely agree that they should be given respect, but to say that these trees should never be collected seems a bit too far. As for the ecosystem, a full sized tree growing 10' away directly in the ground will contribute far more in terms of seed, oxygen and anything else.

When collecting older trees in the areas that I collect, there is easily a 100 to 1 ratio of "old venerable trees" to old collectible trees. So to say that this somehow harms anything doesn't make sense to me.

If our goal is to create/or accentuate beautiful works of art in theses trees and share them with the world...isn't that honoring them? How is this a bad thing?

By "venerable old tree" I was thinking of a tree that has been eking out an existance for a couple of hundred years in hard conditions - like a crack in a rock. Trees ought to be left undisturbed if they grow in circumstances like that where the collecting process would be difficult and would endanger the tree - and the older the tree the more careful one should be. That is what I mean by respect. Collecting a tree like that isn't going to effect the ecosystem much but such a tree deserves better.

 

[Vance Wood]

By "venerable old tree" I was thinking of a tree that has been eking out an existance for a couple of hundred years in hard conditions - like a crack in a rock. Trees ought to be left undisturbed if they grow in circumstances like that where the collecting process would be difficult and would endanger the tree - and the older the tree the more careful one should be. That is what I mean by respect. Collecting a tree like that isn't going to effect the ecosystem much but such a tree deserves better.

On one hand you say Trees ought to be left undisturbed if they grow in circumstances like that where the collecting process would be difficult and would endanger the tree you only vaguely suggest that the tree might be collected. Most collectors worth their salt wont go after a tree that they know they cannot bring home alive. But would your opinion be the same if some collector was able to harvest the tree and make a bonsai out of it?

My problem is with people that say we shouldn't go after trees like you describe at all.

 

[Gene Deci]

On one hand you say Trees ought to be left undisturbed if they grow in circumstances like that where the collecting process would be difficult and would endanger the tree you only vaguely suggest that the tree might be collected. Most collectors worth their salt wont go after a tree that they know they cannot bring home alive. But would your opinion be the same if some collector was able to harvest the tree and make a bonsai out of it?

My problem is with people that say we shouldn't go after trees like you describe at all.

Yes Vance, you have my meaning I think. In my opioion trees that are hard to collect ought to be collected only by those who can do it with some certainty of success. And those same folks would know if they could or not. If they think it is too risky, then simply don't collect them.

I have left promising material uncollected because I doubted I could do it successfully. Leave it for someone with a backhoe who probably could do it.

 

[Dan W.]

I agree completely Vance and Gene.

 

[ghues]

Yes Vance, you have my meaning I think. In my opioion trees that are hard to collect ought to be collected only by those who can do it with some certainty of success. And those same folks would know if they could or not. If they think it is too risky, then simply don't collect them.

I have left promising material uncollected because I doubted I could do it successfully. Leave it for someone with a backhoe who probably could do it.

Dan, Gene and Vance,
This is one part of what I was suggesting, I've been on collecting trips with M. Hagadorn and this was discussed and we all agreed that sometimes we can pay our respects to the tree and mother nature just by studying it, respecting it and leaving it be. We also looked to ensure that the area where a tree is collected has many to replace it.
Cheers Graham

 

[wireme]

Very nicely put. If there were some way to assure that the venerable old trees were treated with the respect they deserve (hardly ever collected, if at all) then it is hard to see why there would be any objections to collecting. I think most of us love trees so much that we can be let loose in the woods without much danger.

Nice, your last sentence above gave me a good chuckle.

Re: the venerable old trees for Dan who asked, pretty subjective, muddy waters, comes down to the philosophy aspect of the original post I guess.

Trees age differently than animals, constantly producing new cells rather than repairing old ones. The original wood on a thousand year old tree has been dead wood for most of a thousand years and all the actual living tissue may be less than 20 yrs old. (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) It could be argued that a 20yr sapling and a thousand year old survivor are worthy of equal respect.

People tend to not see it that way, myself included, maybe we are just placing anthromophic values towards them.

It seems we are all agreeing that these old trees are very worthy of respect, most of us feel selective collection is not an environmentally desructive or terribly immoral thing to do, even the opposite ie: sharing them with the world and promoting love of nature.

I could go on but it's becoming to much about the general ethics of collecting which I'm sure is well debated in another thread somewhere.

This enitre thread shows that the general community is striving towards ensuring that our activities have an overall positive effect., keep the ideas coming.

cheers

 

[Attila Soos]

It may not be practical everywhere and yes its nothing compared to the deforestation of land for agriculture, asphelt, concrete and the like but every little bit helps NO?
I believe you lived up this way - I've been to many different known collecting sites and the number of holes amazes me.
Cheers

Not disagreeing with you at all, yes, every bit helps.
But the biggest help of the conscientious bonsai collector lies somewhere else. This is not often told, so I am going to say it here:

Small scale bonsai collecting is beneficial to the environment (and bonsai in America will ALWAYS will remain small-scale). The bonsai collecting mania in Japan, at the turn of the century, was an aberration, just like the Dutch tulip mania. It was a cultural anomaly, non-existent in other cultures. There is no danger of repeating itself, as long as humans are obsessed with cars, gadgets, Internet, and endless consumption.

The reason why bonsai collecting is a blessing for the environment, is simple: introducing the beauty of age-old trees to the masses, through the art of bonsai, can be powerful and life-changing. Raising awareness to the uniqueness of nature, in the big cities, where most of the people are not even aware of such things, is a good way to protect nature. This is what a great collected bonsai can do.

There is the consummate hiker, who will always love and protect nature. They don't need our help. But there are the millions of inner-city folks, to whom an old pine tree or juniper means nothing but fire-wood, or worst, a nuisance that needs to be removed. Bonsai, and the arts in general, are a force to change our awareness of the trees surrounding us.

So, by cultivating bonsai, we are already helping nature....more than we think. And, of course, we can always do more, such as planting more trees.

(BTW, I used to live and work in the forestry industry up in the Prince George\Quesnel Lake area, as a horticultural surveyor - mapping the forests and counting the trees on a grid, looking at re-forested clear-cuts, their health, etc. Those thousands of acres of clear-cuts, and millions of trees destroyed, can really put bonsai collecting in the proper context. I still have a small Sitka Spruce collected on Vancouver Island, from a nurse-log. It is doing great, here in hot Southern California, after being re-located for 14 years. Two more such collected spruces were stolen - probably Kokufu-Ten materials. I still cry when thinking about them. However, my 3 collected hemlocks, from the Vancouver area, have not survived. I should have given them away, when I moved. Stupid me. You are lucky to live on Van Island. There are some amazing collection sites over there. Just get off that couch and scour those swamps, with half-dead, yellowing-needled dwarf trees, waiting to be rescued )