AaronThomas
Omono
I totally agree! The top isn't important enough to lose the rock composition. Nope not gonna chance it.
I like the thicker trunk idea as well...Here's the pic from Bonsai4me that I fancy.
Yet another elm project
- Thread starter AaronThomas
- Start date
I like the thicker trunk idea as well...Here's the pic from Bonsai4me that I fancy.
AaronThomas
Omono
My horticultural knowledge is exceptionally limited LOL!!! I totally understood what you meant @fredman ! And due to my limited knowledge in the subject of air layering... I completely appreciate you sharing your experience!I'm the first to admit my horticultural knowledge is limited to say the least. I'm drawing this from my logic bank.....
The key to me is how strong and vigorous the tree is...how much food was stored in the roots, before the layer was done, and how quick the layer takes. Everything changes if buds break beneath the girdle off course.... If for some reason the layer fails the first year, and no buds broke beneath that girdle, the roots most certainly is doomed in the next. Some roots might survive but others dies off. That complicates things even more, because new roots have to be grown at the right places. The tree is weakened to such an extend it might never really recover. It'll survive and compensate but will it ever thrive...? Nah its not worth it IMHO
AND thanks to everyone else... even sorce and his issues with crossed roots (JK) @sorce I feel your pain with those roots too! It was one of the first things I kept going back to when looking at the pics....sigh... we shall see!
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M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
I'm liking that more and more.
AaronThomas
Omono
UPDATE!
Hey all!
So its been nearly 3 years since I stared this root over rock composition.
Right soil and tons sun and ferts and this thing took off like a weed... trunk may have grown a bit too beefy if that's a thing.
I have pretty much left the tree alone other than last year when I checked the root adhesion to the rock and trimmed some of roots back... (small pot issues).
I'm thinking this year I am finally going to make my trunk chop... buds are just starting for form so I'm getting ready! Decided against doing the air layer... not going to risk the lower portion.
Any suggestions as to where to chop?
I was thinking about 2" up from the rock.
I have never chopped an Elm before... should I seal the cut?
Thanks!!!
Hey all!
So its been nearly 3 years since I stared this root over rock composition.
Right soil and tons sun and ferts and this thing took off like a weed... trunk may have grown a bit too beefy if that's a thing.
I have pretty much left the tree alone other than last year when I checked the root adhesion to the rock and trimmed some of roots back... (small pot issues
). I'm thinking this year I am finally going to make my trunk chop... buds are just starting for form so I'm getting ready! Decided against doing the air layer... not going to risk the lower portion.
Any suggestions as to where to chop?
I was thinking about 2" up from the rock.
I have never chopped an Elm before... should I seal the cut?
Thanks!!!
jason biggs
Chumono
Why not leave it the height it is and go for a bigger tree -you seem to have plentiful potential up top...
AaronThomas
Omono
So sorry for late reply! Had a trip out of town!
I had not thought of that... there is zero taper in the tree. Wondering if it going to look like a stick and a rock in a pot?
Def an idea though! Thanks!
AaronThomas
Omono
Nobody else huh?
Not even a burn it? LOL
Buds popping... to cut or not to cut?
Not even a burn it? LOL
Buds popping... to cut or not to cut?
MHBonsai
Chumono
Strong growth! Chop that sucker. It may be time to open it up and give those roots some air around the rock and let them bark up too.
It's hard to know the scale of the tree to give you specific height. It will grow right from the cut site often times, I would not seal it. Follow the lead of the pic you posted earlier. Chop lower than you think you should.
AaronThomas
Omono
EXCELLENT!
I love Harrys composition of that tree in the pic! Perhaps I should cut under that existing branch... Was wondering if by leaving the 2" I maybe shooting myself in the foot down the road.
The roots seem to have really started to squees the rock. Like that idea as well!
Thanks @MHBonsai!
MHBonsai
Chumono
Play it by ear on the roots, take a look and see how they are gripping and if you are happy with it, I don't think there is harm in removing the wrapping.
Take a photo of the tree and draw a little sketch of your future image and let that guide your chopping process. Or post it here so we can see better, from the side view someday you will want to display. Cheers! Cool project.
Take a photo of the tree and draw a little sketch of your future image and let that guide your chopping process. Or post it here so we can see better, from the side view someday you will want to display. Cheers! Cool project.
MHBonsai
Chumono
https://bonsaial.wordpress.com/2014/10/12/maple-trunk-chopping/
About half way down are some good sketches for visualizing a chop and grow out....
About half way down are some good sketches for visualizing a chop and grow out....
j evans
Omono
If you undecided, I would let it grow.
Especially if you are liking the way it looks
I think that it can be great either way.
Especially if you are liking the way it looks
I think that it can be great either way.
AaronThomas
Omono
Great idea......
Hey J.... the over all idea in the beginning was to chop the tree around this point. I do like the growth the tree has seen in the pass few years but Im worried about the trunk. Its about 7 or 8 inches with no taper.... I posted a better pic to try to show what Im dealing with....
AaronThomas
Omono
Well... I decided to go with what I intended for this composition from the beginning. As mentioned I really love that piece that Harry did a few years back and really want to give it a shot of my own. I chopped the top and left about 2” of trunk just above a random lateral branch.
Very stressful btw!!! Lol
How does my cut look? And defiantly no paste?
Will let this guy recoop in the shade for the next few.
Any suggestions to insure health would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks again!
Very stressful btw!!! Lol
How does my cut look? And defiantly no paste?
Will let this guy recoop in the shade for the next few.
Any suggestions to insure health would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks again!
MHBonsai
Chumono
I wouldn't do paste. It'll probably push buds from all over the place. Let it grow and recover, and pick your buds to grow out.
If it was me, I'd be looking for a 'first branch bud coming off the right side and letting that extend. After you know where the design is going you can use cut paste without any harm.
Can you put some movement in that side branch before it explodes w/ growth? I might put a bit of wire on it to get some movement if it's going to be your new leader.
If it was me, I'd be looking for a 'first branch bud coming off the right side and letting that extend. After you know where the design is going you can use cut paste without any harm.
Can you put some movement in that side branch before it explodes w/ growth? I might put a bit of wire on it to get some movement if it's going to be your new leader.
MHBonsai
Chumono
Sketch out your plan and wire that new leader to match future growth. This is probably something like what I'd shoot for. Forgive the terrible MS Paint sketch. Lol
AaronThomas
Omono
Not sure this will be a good leader... it’s alreay pretty thick. Think I need to see what happens at the chop this year. In looking at the composition I had in mind... it doesn’t look as though Harry had a leader. Looks as though he let the tree do its thing from the chop...?
Hahahahah! Your rendering is perfect!
Thank you again for your help!
http://www.bonsai4me.com/AdvTech/ATRootoverrock page2.htm
AaronThomas
Omono
Well its been a few months since the chop and things are progressing nicely... I think?
I ended up cutting that one branch way back and have been getting all kinds of new growth on and around what remains.
Did I make a mistake by not cutting that branch all the way off?
Should I have prepped more for a leader even though I'm not looking for much more trunk height?
Sorry... first chop on an elm though Im guessing its not much different then a chop on say a cypress.
Was hoping I would have a bit more growth around the chop.
Any thought would be greatly appreciated.
I ended up cutting that one branch way back and have been getting all kinds of new growth on and around what remains.
Did I make a mistake by not cutting that branch all the way off?
Should I have prepped more for a leader even though I'm not looking for much more trunk height?
Sorry... first chop on an elm though Im guessing its not much different then a chop on say a cypress.
Was hoping I would have a bit more growth around the chop.
Any thought would be greatly appreciated.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
I am surprised you don't have more shoots around the cut. Healthy elms will normally grow many new shoots all round the exposed cambium. They may still emerge later but maybe it did not have enough energy stored. was it well fed last year?
The trunk shape for root over rock is very dependant on the shape of the rock and the roots below. Root lines and rock need to compliment the trunk rather than fight against it. I think it is critical to see the whole thing before making further decisions about shape of than trunk.
It is hard enough to get a single trunk tree to look good - taper, trunk line and branches all need to work together. Root over rock introduces a couple more elements into the design - rock and roots. Now you need all the previous elements as well as the new ones to look good together. Not all root over rock bonsai are successful from a design point of view.
The trunk shape for root over rock is very dependant on the shape of the rock and the roots below. Root lines and rock need to compliment the trunk rather than fight against it. I think it is critical to see the whole thing before making further decisions about shape of than trunk.
It is hard enough to get a single trunk tree to look good - taper, trunk line and branches all need to work together. Root over rock introduces a couple more elements into the design - rock and roots. Now you need all the previous elements as well as the new ones to look good together. Not all root over rock bonsai are successful from a design point of view.
AaronThomas
Omono
As am I. Its only been 2 months but really thought the buds would be pushing all around by now.... but its Bonsai.... so patients is a venture. Tree was fed very well... I actually think the trunk is a bit too thick for the composition I had in mind.
Roots... we will have to wait and see. Plan on slowly uncovering in the next few months.
