Cat litter as soil

[rockm]

"It freezes here. Just not as much and as hard as it does in the rest of the country. It regularly gets down into the low 20s every winter and I still have not seen any effect on the kitty litter's ability to maintain its structure."

Define "regularly." Regularly, in the east, is 20's for 30 days in Dec. followed by nights with teens and single digits in Jan. and Feb. with intermittent thaws between combined with a lot of rain. Soggy kitty litter that freezes deeply into single digits followed by a short above freezing warm up turns to mush simply by the physical action of freezing. Frozen water expands and explodes the particles. High fired particles like haydite and akadama (the high-fired stuff) are resistant to that process. The sustained deep freeze thaw, deep freeze that will break down kitty litter in a month. I've seen it happen.

 

[misfit11]

Regularly, in the east, is 20's for 30 days in Dec. followed by nights with teens and single digits in Jan. and Feb. with intermittent thaws between combined with a lot of rain. Soggy kitty litter that freezes deeply into single digits followed by a short above freezing warm up turns to mush simply by the physical action of freezing. Frozen water expands and explodes the particles. High fired particles like haydite and akadama (the high-fired stuff) are resistant to that process. The sustained deep freeze thaw, deep freeze that will break down kitty litter in a month. I've seen it happen.

I believe you, rockm. Which I why I said this in my original post:

As a caveat, I do live in coastal CA, so this may be a contributing factor. People in other parts of the country would have harder freezes than we do here and this may lead to breakdown that I haven't experienced.

 

[PaulH]

"I'm not sure why people don't just use straight pumice if they have a question about what to use and no access to akadama... pumice is fantastic training medium."

Srsly, over here on the right coast, pumice in any quantity, or that doesn't have to be broken down with a sledge, is mostly a rare and expensive find.

Use cat litter at your own risk...if you live where freezes are the rule in the winter, you will regret it. If you live in an area that doesn't freeze, you can use just about ANYTHING, including crushed glass or ground up vinyl, as a soil, provided you water and fertilize it adequately...Just because you CAN use it, doesn't make it the greatest soil, though...

Check your local feed stores or farm supply for "Dry Stall". Its a pure pumice already sifted to a size usable for bonsai with just a few fines to sift out. It works great and is inexpensive.

 

[TheSteve]

Rock,
The aforementioned "special kitty" litter from wal mart doesn't seem to break down. It's worth a test if in doubt, go buy a bag, put some in a bowl of water and stick it in the freezer, thaw, repeat as many times as you need to. Most brands don't work but this one seems to hold up. Or don't... I'm not selling this stuff just stating it has worked and I've had trees thrive in it.

Paul,
The Dry stall in feed stores around here is diatomaceous earth not pumice, I've tried that route. Not saying it all is but I am saying that people who go buy it the first time need to check just as with the cat litter because not all ingredients are the same.

 

[rockm]

"It's worth a test if in doubt, go buy a bag, put some in a bowl of water and stick it in the freezer, thaw, repeat as many times as you need to. Most brands don't work but this one seems to hold up."

The freezer is NOT really a reliable test for bonsai soil. Freezer air is extremely dry and stable. The combination of a lot of liquid precipitation followed by a deep freeze, followed by thawing cannot be replicated in a freezer. Those are the conditions we deal with in my area. I believe there was a test of some of the kitty litter you mention a while back that used the actual weather in the Northeast or middle Atlantic as a test. The stuff turned to mush in a couple of weeks in January. I wish I could find the link to the IBC posts...

Bottom line (And call me a snob--go ahead you know you want to), I've got no confidence in kitty litter from WalMart as the foundation of what supports my trees, even if it is inexpensive.

Drystall is OK, but it's stark white, presenting an entirely different set of issues.

 

[TheSteve]

Just saw that a new landscaping supply has opened this week. Looks like I'll have to drive over and beg for them to carry pumice...

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You are absolutely right. the kicker being if I want anything bigger than a quart bag of it I'd have to drive my truck 50 miles (one way) at 10 mpg to pick up some at $40/yard. I love pumice, just not the availability. It's been my quest for the last few months to find a supplier close by. I'm failing miserably.

If you have a truck, become the supplier. Sell enough to your local club members to cover gas, and improve the quality of the soil used by members of the club...
Wait...that sounds like the c-word (capitalism)...might be frowned upon by some out there...;-)

 

[edprocoat]

Kitty Litter, I heard this stuff works great for cat crap!

ed

 

[Bill S]

Just saw that a new landscaping supply has opened this week. Looks like I'll have to drive over and beg for them to carry pumice...

If they are affiliated w/ Agway just ask and they can get it shipped in from another store, and i don't think shipping comes to play.

 

[coh]

I think the best advice is to test whatever substrate you want to try. Soak it in water, let it dry, soak it again...see how well it handles many of these cycles. If your plants will be exposed to freeze-thaw cycles, test it that way - either in the freezer (crude approximation as someone mentioned), or put some in a pot and leave it with your trees through the winter. Or sacrifice some seedlings/unwanted trees, see if they survive in it.

I posted this on some of the other forums but will repeat it here. I tested the "Special Kitty" from WalMart. To begin with, it's much softer than turface - particles are easily broken with a fingernail. After the water test it started to break down and clump. Not completely, but enough to concern me. After a few freeze/thaw cycles it had broken down quite a bit...while turface was unaffected. Conclusion - won't work for me in my upstate NY climate.

Also tested NAPA oil-dry. It is a DE product. Much harder than the Special Kitty, not quite as hard as turface (but close). Held up very well to the water test, and also the freeze test. Some degradation but slight. I could see possibly testing this on plants - but really, turface isn't all that expensive...$15-$18 for a 50 pound bag. And I know several growers who have successfully used turface for many years...don't personally know of anyone who has had long term success with DE.

To each his/her own...just test whatever you get before planting your prize specimen in it!

Chris

 

[TheSteve]

Interesting info. I've had some trees in it for at least the last three years. no breakdown yet. However, if they've changed their manufacturing specs then it's good to know and I won't be buying anymore. Like I've said all along, so far it's worked for me and hasn't failed structurally, the trees respond well in it but it may not be something that continues if people are finding it breaking down.

 

[TheSteve]

Brian,
I don't belong to a club so that's unfortunately out. I may just have to bite the bullet and make the trip. I find it stupid that with the 15 nurseries and landscaping supply outfits within 15-20 miles of me, no one sells pumice. I guess that would hurt their premix sales though.

 

[coh]

Interesting info. I've had some trees in it for at least the last three years. no breakdown yet. However, if they've changed their manufacturing specs then it's good to know and I won't be buying anymore. Like I've said all along, so far it's worked for me and hasn't failed structurally, the trees respond well in it but it may not be something that continues if people are finding it breaking down.

It is possible that they've changed the manufacturing process. The stuff I got was definitely clay, but not a high-fired clay. I can't remember exactly what the package said...will check it tomorrow. Something like "mined clay", I think.

It's too bad...the stuff looked almost exactly like turface (even had a slightly larger average particle size), and absorbed about the same amount of water...just didn't hold up. Maybe you'll find a different version.

Chris

 

[TheSteve]

It's not the end of the world. It did work well though. I'm not surprised that a generic brand would go a cheaper route. Oh well. thanks again for the heads up.

 

[Vance Wood]

Brian,
I don't belong to a club so that's unfortunately out. I may just have to bite the bullet and make the trip. I find it stupid that with the 15 nurseries and landscaping supply outfits within 15-20 miles of me, no one sells pumice. I guess that would hurt their premix sales though.

I have found that Pumice is not that common out side of the west Coast, in fact I have never seen it here in Michigan. The sad fact is that nurseries and their suppliers are not too concerned about bonsai culture and are not likely to stock the kinds of things we are interested in. For the first time in years I had to go looking for composted pine bark. I usually buy a lot of it at a time but; I did in fact run out and had to restock. It is surprising what I found. Manufactuerers are now putting artificial coloring in a lot of this stuff. It looks like many of these products are being pushed into the "Designer" market with prices that match the catagory.

I would also like to mention as a side bar, because someone found it necessary to comment, I am using my wife's old computer that does not have a spell checker, so please forgive my misspelling when it happens.

 

[coh]

For the first time in years I had to go looking for composted pine bark. I usually buy a lot of it at a time but; I did in fact run out and had to restock. It is surprising what I found. Manufactuerers are now putting artificial coloring in a lot of this stuff. It looks like many of these products are being pushed into the "Designer" market with prices that match the catagory.

This has happened to me numerous times with numerous products - either being discontinued or changed. I've learned to buy as much possible (in cost and storage space) and re-stock before running out. Can be very frustrating.

To TheSteve - I checked my bag of special kitty, the ingredients are listed simply as "ground clay".

Chris

 

[Beetleman72]

I've heard only good things about using diatomaceous earth. I have some in a bag for insect control but it's ground to a very fine powder. What sort of particulate size do you need to use?

 

[Stan Kengai]

It's hard to find DE much larger than 1/16". I sift mine between 1/32" to 1/16". It also depends on the size of your plants, for mame or small shohins you could use down to 1/64". Be careful if/when sifting because the dust can be an irritant when inhaled. I always use a mask.

 

[coh]

The only decent DE I've seen is the floor dry (or oil dry, can't remember exactly what they call it) product from NAPA. It is calcined DE and the particle size is basically the same as most of the turface I've used.

 

[TheSteve]

I've got say that this has been the most civil thread concerning non-traditional soil I've ever seen.....