Bad Material + Bonsai Master = Bad Material

[Poink88]

bad material + good artist + 25 years = mediocre bonsai

Sorry, but in this case, the good artist is not as good as you think.

Don't blame the material...it is the artist (if you can call him that) who is lacking; vision, knowledge, technique, courage, skill, etc.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Have you tried google images searching "bonsai". Lots of pics there.

Kind regards,
Darth

Do you understand how forums work? You're here for all of 15 posts and telling others to go search google images if they want to see pictures of trees?

 

[johng]

If you start with bad material, no matter who works on it, it will still be bad material. Just wondering where everybody stands on this thought.

Kind regards,
Darth

the variable missing from this equation is time....the results will vary based on the amount of time given before evaluating the sum.
john

 

[JudyB]

Have you tried google images searching "bonsai". Lots of pics there.

Yes you can learn things by just looking at internet photos of trees, to train your eye to good examples of trees. But you can't learn the actions that make those trees good. That is why examples of what others are doing, and how they are developing their trees is extremely important to those of us who use the forum in this way. Some of us don't have access to great clubs, or teachers, or sometimes, even great material.

The examples of progressions here, is what makes this forum a learning place. For both philosophical, and material training.

I would not be too quick if I were you, to put down the folks here who have offered up their expertise to help others along. I being the recipient of many of these people who have selflessly given their time to move the craft forward in the ways they can.

 

[berobinson82]

Have you tried google images searching "bonsai". Lots of pics there.

Kind regards,
Darth

I do not believe you are sincere when you say 'Kind regards'. That statement was tacky, tactless, and added nothing to this conversation. It certainly didn't show kindness.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

I do not believe you are sincere when you say 'Kind regards'. That statement was tacky, tactless, and added nothing to this conversation. It certainly didn't show kindness.

I started this thread with a real question. It quickly turned into this has been beaten to death, lets just shut this guy down and show pics of trees and talk technique. Nothing to see here, move on. If this is not also a place for philosophical discussion, then you are right, I should move on.

Tactless Darth

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Yes you can learn things by just looking at internet photos of trees, to train your eye to good examples of trees. But you can't learn the actions that make those trees good. That is why examples of what others are doing, and how they are developing their trees is extremely important to those of us who use the forum in this way. Some of us don't have access to great clubs, or teachers, or sometimes, even great material.

The examples of progressions here, is what makes this forum a learning place. For both philosophical, and material training.

I would not be too quick if I were you, to put down the folks here who have offered up their expertise to help others along. I being the recipient of many of these people who have selflessly given their time to move the craft forward in the ways they can.

No intent to put others down offering expertise, just like to discuss philosophical topics as well. And I like to express my opinion - thought that was the point. You tell me, being a newbie on this forum, having just started my first thread, being told within three responses this had been beaten to death, I am supposed to feel all warm and cozy. Perhaps I should spend the next couple of weeks reviewing the past several thousand threads before posting anymore. However, it seems from the responses that there is a difference of opinion in this topic and perhaps something could be gained from exchange of ideas. But it sounds like we are just supposed to quietly post pics of our trees so others can compliment our flawless achievement, just like every other forum on the internet.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[october]

Have you tried google images searching "bonsai". Lots of pics there.

Kind regards,
Darth

What's google.lol... Never heard of it.. Anyway, there is, mostly likely, one of three reasons for your reply. One could be because of my post in this thread stating that threads about opinons and other things that lead to nowhere are just taking away from other informative threads. I assure you that your thread was not singled out. There has been an influx of these threads recently and they seem to evolve into heated debates, with little actual trees being posted.

Second, perhaps you thought I was new to bonsai and searching for bonsai images.

Third, maybe you don't have many or any trees or trees that you think are not that nice. It doesn't matter, you should post them anyway. Not because I ask you to, but this is a bonsai hobby site. If you joined a site about dogs. You would post pics of your dog. If you joined a site about reptiles and amphibians as pets, you would post pics of your pet lizards and frogs. If you joined a site about painting, you would post pics of your art work. The same principle applies here. I am here to post my trees, see others trees and have conversations about trees.

Rob

 

[Darth Tanuki]

Have you tried google images searching "bonsai". Lots of pics there.

Kind regards,
Darth

I posted this directed to the person that told me my thread had no merit. He wanted to see other things, and essentially didn't want to see anymore of this kind of topic. I let him know my opinion of his critique of my thread.

Kind regards,
Darth

 

[october]

"One could be because of my post in this thread stating that threads about opinons and other things that lead to nowhere are just taking away from other informative threads. I assure you that your thread was not singled out. There has been an influx of these threads recently and they seem to evolve into heated debates, with little actual trees being posted."

Did you read my reply 2 posts up?. I reposted above, the part of it that relates to your comment. My comments did not specifically taget your thread. However, in the last few weeks it has been getting worse and worse and I saw it happening with this thread. This thread itself is fine.. as long as it doesn't take a bad turn like the others. Also, why not post examples of the things you are talkign about in these thread, progressions or work etc..

Rob

 

[JudyB]

Perhaps I should spend the next couple of weeks reviewing the past several thousand threads

I could think of many worse things to spend my time on...
(I started out my time on this forum doing exactly that, and still go back occasionally)

No one is bashing the idea of a thoughtful - or thought provoking thread. We all enjoy these ideas getting out there, it broadens us all. A few people have rightly noticed, that some of these types of threads have been turning sour, and there do seem to be no dearth of them lately.

And when you were flippant in your reply to October, then it quickly turned into something else.

 

[Dan W.]

It seems to me.. . the only sensible next course of action would be to return to the topic of this thread...lol.. .

Of course we would not be human if we didn't rabbit trail and argue to some extent...at least we wouldn't be good "Bonsai Nuts"...

Darth, I do believe I understand some of where you're coming from.. and I also agree with much of it. If I missunderstand I appologise.

1) I beleive that almost any material could become decent bonsai given time and skill.

2) A good/great artist is of course capable of making this happen.

3) A good/great artist will likely not waste his/her time on crappy material.

The only reason I can think of that a great artist would start with crappy material would simply be to prove that they can do it. But I don't believe any great artist really cares about proving these things.. . They care about their art form and creating beautiful works of art. They will work with trees that inspire them, material they love, material they want to take somewhere/develop/grow with. Of course they could cast vision for lesser material, but why should they? It seems to me, great talent working with crappy material is just wasted time and talent.

Also, if one is an aspiring artist, I assume it will not take long before they become unsatisfied with time consuming/crappy material...

Just my two cents

 

[Poink88]

1) I beleive that almost any material could become decent bonsai given time and skill.

2) A good/great artist is of course capable of making this happen.

3) A good/great artist will likely not waste his/her time on crappy material.

The only reason I can think of that a great artist would start with crappy material would simply be to prove that they can do it. But I don't believe any great artist really cares about proving these things.. . They care about their art form and creating beautiful works of art. They will work with trees that inspire them, material they love, material they want to take somewhere/develop/grow with. Of course they could cast vision for lesser material, but why should they? It seems to me, great talent working with crappy material is just wasted time and talent.

Also, if one is an aspiring artist, I assume it will not take long before they become unsatisfied with time consuming/crappy material...

Just my two cents

I agree!!!!

 

[yenling83]

It seems to me.. . the only sensible next course of action would be to return to the topic of this thread...lol.. .

Of course we would not be human if we didn't rabbit trail and argue to some extent...at least we wouldn't be good "Bonsai Nuts"...

Darth, I do believe I understand some of where you're coming from.. and I also agree with much of it. If I missunderstand I appologise.

1) I beleive that almost any material could become decent bonsai given time and skill.

2) A good/great artist is of course capable of making this happen.

3) A good/great artist will likely not waste his/her time on crappy material.

The only reason I can think of that a great artist would start with crappy material would simply be to prove that they can do it. But I don't believe any great artist really cares about proving these things.. . They care about their art form and creating beautiful works of art. They will work with trees that inspire them, material they love, material they want to take somewhere/develop/grow with. Of course they could cast vision for lesser material, but why should they? It seems to me, great talent working with crappy material is just wasted time and talent.

Also, if one is an aspiring artist, I assume it will not take long before they become unsatisfied with time consuming/crappy material...

Just my two cents

Nice Dan, getting back on track is the right way to go. I think one really important point, is how are we defining what "Good Bonsai" is and how do you measure that? One person's definition of good Bonsai could be the top 10 best trees in their club. Where as another person's def of good bonsai is a tree which would theoretically be accepted at Kokufu. We could be comparing apples to oranges here.

I'd hope that more and more Americans will continue to raise their standards. At this point in time, I think one good American standard should be if your tree could get into the Portland Cup.

Another question we should ask is, what are your goals with Bonsai? What level do you want to have your trees at? Personally, I want to have a collection considered among the best in the world. Right now i'm very far away from that goal and while i'm very patient, I will always get rid of my lower quality trees to make room for better quality.

 

[milehigh_7]

It seems to me.. . the only sensible next course of action would be to return to the topic of this thread...lol.. .

Of course we would not be human if we didn't rabbit trail and argue to some extent...at least we wouldn't be good "Bonsai Nuts"...

Darth, I do believe I understand some of where you're coming from.. and I also agree with much of it. If I missunderstand I appologise.

1) I beleive that almost any material could become decent bonsai given time and skill.

2) A good/great artist is of course capable of making this happen.

3) A good/great artist will likely not waste his/her time on crappy material.

The only reason I can think of that a great artist would start with crappy material would simply be to prove that they can do it. But I don't believe any great artist really cares about proving these things.. . They care about their art form and creating beautiful works of art. They will work with trees that inspire them, material they love, material they want to take somewhere/develop/grow with. Of course they could cast vision for lesser material, but why should they? It seems to me, great talent working with crappy material is just wasted time and talent.

Also, if one is an aspiring artist, I assume it will not take long before they become unsatisfied with time consuming/crappy material...

Just my two cents

This is pretty much exactly what I said. BTW correct my bonsai ignorance but we don't have any of your tree pics darth so let's look at your name. ;-) Isn't a "Tanuki" a well crafted phony?

 

[Vance Wood]

If you start with bad material, no matter who works on it, it will still be bad material. Just wondering where everybody stands on this thought.

Kind regards,
Darth

Who is the good material, bad material police?

 

[catfish chapstick]

bad material

something that makes an individual skilled at bonsai is having the ability to discern whether or not material has potential enough to make it worth the time and energy to fulfill a worthy vision.

the bonsai master that opts for the better material will always have the upper hand.

probably most bonsai masters wouldn't waste time on bad material.

I do, however, believe that bad material is great for learning or experimenting.

 

[Vance Wood]

something that makes an individual skilled at bonsai is having the ability to discern whether or not material has potential enough to make it worth the time and energy to fulfill a worthy vision.

the bonsai master that opts for the better material will always have the upper hand.

probably most bonsai masters wouldn't waste time on bad material.

I do, however, believe that bad material is great for learning or experimenting.

Let me play devil's advocate with you. It is a matter of perception. With the exception of a seedling with two leaves on it, there is not too much out there that may be universally considered bad material. I have seen a couple of real nice bonsai made out of material most of us would have rejected for various reasons. The real problem as I see it is in the fact we too often claim something is bad material when we simply don't have an idea what to do with it.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

This is pretty much exactly what I said. BTW correct my bonsai ignorance but we don't have any of your tree pics darth so let's look at your name. ;-) Isn't a "Tanuki" a well crafted phony?

Well crafted is the key point, but not all tanuki are. And you are correct, you don't have any pictures of my trees.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

It seems to me.. . the only sensible next course of action would be to return to the topic of this thread...lol.. .

Of course we would not be human if we didn't rabbit trail and argue to some extent...at least we wouldn't be good "Bonsai Nuts"...

Darth, I do believe I understand some of where you're coming from.. and I also agree with much of it. If I missunderstand I appologise.

1) I beleive that almost any material could become decent bonsai given time and skill.

2) A good/great artist is of course capable of making this happen.

3) A good/great artist will likely not waste his/her time on crappy material.

The only reason I can think of that a great artist would start with crappy material would simply be to prove that they can do it. But I don't believe any great artist really cares about proving these things.. . They care about their art form and creating beautiful works of art. They will work with trees that inspire them, material they love, material they want to take somewhere/develop/grow with. Of course they could cast vision for lesser material, but why should they? It seems to me, great talent working with crappy material is just wasted time and talent.

Also, if one is an aspiring artist, I assume it will not take long before they become unsatisfied with time consuming/crappy material...

Just my two cents

Your response brings us all closer to agreement. The word decent is well chosen and central to all the discord I believe. And that is the purpose of this thread, thank you for the clarity. Is everyone's goal a 'decent' bonsai collection?

Kind regards,
Darth