nathanbs
Omono
out of curiosity anybody feel like there would be a better way to do it?
Kennett Collection Reduction sale
- Thread starter Paulkellum
- Start date
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Maybe allow each person to only select one tree (instead of three) until everyone has been admitted and had the chance to get a tree.
SimonDuval
Yamadori
Why not make it into an auction kinda of style. You can still have a 3 bonsai per person rule if you want but at least, the hundreds of people who showed up have a chance at a tree, may the highest bidder win.
I wasn't there so I can't comment about the process they used but reading the comments, it seems like a lot of people were frustrated by it.
I wasn't there so I can't comment about the process they used but reading the comments, it seems like a lot of people were frustrated by it.
lordy
Omono
Here's how it worked: you got in based on the lottery, which I feel was fair. BUT after you got in, you could stay in, whether you chose trees or not. This made for increasingly heavy traffic for the ones that got in later. Not the best atmosphere for being able to look around for your 10 minutes without having to dodge 30 other people, or more. And one of the rules was, if someone is examining a tree, you were not supposed to hover. I think that when a new group was allowed in, the last group leaves to give the new group some space. Another rule that got abused was that one guy would go in and hunt for someone else. I saw buy tags getting handed over the wall so that the one inside could keep choosing trees, ending up with more than his 3 choices. Dont confuse these observations as sour grapes. I felt privileged to even see these trees, but feel it could have be a bit more fair. But the ultimate goal was to sell all the trees, not satisfy me or anyone else.
I did not realize people were actually handing tags over to their friends over the wall. That is just unreal and I am disappointed to learn this news...I did select a tree for a friend as part of my 3 tree limit but I made sure to observe the rules to be fair to everyone and did not select anymore trees(beyond my 3) until after every group was called in...
Doug set the rules to benefit everyone but I guess some folks could not help but to stick their hands in the candy jar...Im surprised with 15 Ushers in that tight space that someone was still able to hand tags over to friends. I don't believe it was possible to make everyone there happy... Wasn't possible...however the parameters existed to make sure the process was fair within measure.
Chuchin
Auction would not have worked and would have been unfair to many...Highest bidder would be the well off folks...There were big players in the crowd...Guys/Gals who could easily dump 30-50K in trees that day...I think someone made the same observation on this post...If you do an auction (He/She) could practically outbid all that are not well financed and win everything...The end results would actually be worst if the event was approached in this way...By doing a lottery you put everyone @ the same level...By limiting folks to 3 trees you give most everyone a chance to get something...
I honestly feel for those who didn't get anything but it was purely luck of the draw(power ball)
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
But the lottery doesn't put everyone at the same level if the first ones are allowed 3 trees each. I think to be perfectly fair you'd have to limit it to 1 each until everyone had a shot, then open it up to allow multiple trees.
Did people know in advance how this was going to work? Or were the details not announced until the morning?
Terrible that people were abusing the system and handing tags to those outside. I hope the organizers were made aware of that in case something like this ever comes up again.
Chris
MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
WOW! I am also very surprised to hear of this. I was on the outside looking in and never saw anything of the kind. As you said, I can't believe this happened with so many ushers there.
Yes I agree. I know of at least one person who showed up with $20,000 in cash looking for trees for a client. Some serious high rollers in the place! Many of us could have never competed against this in an auction type of setting.
I am extremely grateful that I was able to walk away with something nice.
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I am a little guy(not physically
and it is beyond my reality to spend that kind of money. The way things were approach helped me to start at the same point as the "Trumps" of bonsai. This event the rules all proved that money doesn't nescesarilly buy you everything . In this example luck does...Still stunned by the 20k in one shot...hats impressive ....
al345900
Sapling
Another way you can do it is like Jack Wikle did two years ago.
Buyer numbers were assigned and the sales process started with buyers being offered, in numerical order, an opportunity to select a bonsai for purchase. The second round of selection opportunities took place in reverse numerical order, the third round in numerical order and the fourth round in reverse numerical order, etc., until there is was no further interest in buying.
Buyer numbers were assigned and the sales process started with buyers being offered, in numerical order, an opportunity to select a bonsai for purchase. The second round of selection opportunities took place in reverse numerical order, the third round in numerical order and the fourth round in reverse numerical order, etc., until there is was no further interest in buying.
Im not well informed with what occured two years ago? What was this even Jack held? Where was it held?
The suggested approach has its strength but Im sure some can argue there are still weaknesses that would still leave many people out. Leaving it to luck sucks and I have wrestled with it however I feel its the only fair way...Like the powerball ticket
The suggested approach has its strength but Im sure some can argue there are still weaknesses that would still leave many people out. Leaving it to luck sucks and I have wrestled with it however I feel its the only fair way...Like the powerball ticket
nathanbs
Omono
Several months after I got started in bonsai a long time bonsai man that had the intentions of retiring and opening up a bonsai nursery succumbed to cancer and his family had an estate sale where names were drawn out of a hat and you got to go in and buy one item and come out. They repeated this process over and over until things slowed down and then they did a blanket discount and did another round or two and then an even bigger discount. If I was not a certifiable B-nut before that day I certainly was after. I dug something like 8 trees out of the yard that were bonsai material.
Don Blackmond
Omono
this is a good discussion. there are pros and cons to all approaches.
the lottery system keeps it relatively calm and controlled, avoiding the Black Friday madness when doors open. Doug wanted to spread the opportunity and avoid a contentious and aggressive start.
a limit on number of trees helps to ensure that every person has the chance to buy something. larger limit = less assurance everyone gets something. lower limit = less people inclined to travel to the sale. if you were limited to just one tree, then you might not take the time and spend the money to travel to the sale. there is a fine line there somewhere.
you have to look at it from his perspective. he could have easily sold all those trees privately to just a few interested buyers, and the general public would have missed out on the opportunity. he chose to spread the wealth, so to speak, but could not be so restrictive that people were discouraged from traveling long distances to spend money.
it sounds like it was an excellent sale and quite successful on a number of levels.
I will say what I always tell my kids: fair does not mean equal. Doug's sale was fair, and that's all you can hope for.
the lottery system keeps it relatively calm and controlled, avoiding the Black Friday madness when doors open. Doug wanted to spread the opportunity and avoid a contentious and aggressive start.
a limit on number of trees helps to ensure that every person has the chance to buy something. larger limit = less assurance everyone gets something. lower limit = less people inclined to travel to the sale. if you were limited to just one tree, then you might not take the time and spend the money to travel to the sale. there is a fine line there somewhere.
you have to look at it from his perspective. he could have easily sold all those trees privately to just a few interested buyers, and the general public would have missed out on the opportunity. he chose to spread the wealth, so to speak, but could not be so restrictive that people were discouraged from traveling long distances to spend money.
it sounds like it was an excellent sale and quite successful on a number of levels.
I will say what I always tell my kids: fair does not mean equal. Doug's sale was fair, and that's all you can hope for.
nathanbs
Omono
i think its being proposed that 1 tree each round. Unlimited trees until all is sold similar to my experience. The wrist bands seemed like a good idea but it should have been redone each round after everyone selected one tree so to reset the odds. I agree that it was great that he had done this I just wondered if there was a better way that others could model for future sales.
Don Blackmond
Omono
I think 1 tree per round would have significantly shrunk the number of attendees. That's good for those who do attend, but not good for the seller.
I would not travel from Michigan for the chance at 1 tree. On the other end of the spectrum, if there was no limit, then I would have taken a truck and spent $50,000.
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Yes, that's what I was trying to suggest - not one tree per person, but one tree per person until everyone had a chance. But then what happens if # people > # trees...there's always a potential issue.
The above might persuade some to skip the event but might encourage others who would feel like they had a better chance to get at least 1 decent tree.
Several in this thread have commented that they "got a good tree" or "were happy with what they got", but how would they have felt if there were in group 13 and all that was left was the $5000+ trees and the scraggly $50 pines? I guess it might depend on whether their budget was over or under $5000...
Chris
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
But you didn't attend with the 3-tree limit either, right? So it wouldn't have made a difference in your case. I mean, is it better to go and risk being allowed to pick 3 "leftovers" if you happen to be in the last group, or to go knowing that you are almost guaranteed to get at least 1 good tree?
There's no perfect solution that would completely satisfy everyone, but it is interesting to think about.
Chris
barrosinc
Masterpiece
I would have loved a maple and an azalea... too bad I live ine South America.
Don Blackmond
Omono
Right. There is no perfect solution. And that's what makes this discussion good.
3 tree limit was a huge reason to not go. Add in the snow storm and a demanding schedule and not going was easy (for me).
1 tree limit is a no brainer for me. You aren't almost guaranteed to get at least 1 good tree with a 1 tree limit unless there are less people attending than trees for sale. That's a bigger risk for me. Plus a great deal on 1 tree suddenly becomes an overpriced tree when you consider fuel, meals, lodging, etc.
