Best soil for developing trees?

[coh]

Despite all the different strong opinions on this rapidly growing thread, it has some very good info and makes me think. I'm unconvinced that there is one good mix for everyone everywhere. There are too many factors related to and not limited to watering, fertilizing, type of container, repotting, and climate. That is my 2 cents.

This is pretty much how I look at it. I read (and participate in) these threads to get new ideas. Our climate is very different from Florida, Texas, California, Germany, so I'll take ideas from people in those areas and test them. But until I convince myself that those approaches work for me, I defer to what successful people are using in my area. I think that's the most sensible approach.

Chris

 

[Vance Wood]

This is pretty much how I look at it. I read (and participate in) these threads to get new ideas. Our climate is very different from Florida, Texas, California, Germany, so I'll take ideas from people in those areas and test them. But until I convince myself that those approaches work for me, I defer to what successful people are using in my area. I think that's the most sensible approach.

Chris

I think that is exactly right. It boils down to the issue of whether or not you are able to grow bonsai in your area successfully. If you are successful I see no reason to change the soil mix you are using even if I personally hate it. If it works for you and does everything it should do why should you change---because some over-entusiastic individual from some other state with stars in their eyes insists that you should?

 

[Poink88]

I have said it over and over till I am blue in the face. You are a newbie to this forum as well as many here in this very conversation. Read my threads about soil and humates. I have gone thru this too many times. If people would listen and understand the chemistry of soil CEC and adsorption then it will become clear on what it is that people do to their soil and why each can have success with whatever they use as long as they key component is there.

So....far I have not read one soil formula here yet that is totaly inorganic. Start there and start making a list for the commonalities and you will see the big picture.

Thank you. That is so much better.

FYI, I read your soil posts and even adopted part of them and part of my mix evolution to what it is now. I use humates/humic acid (though I did not list it) because of you. Same reason I add charcoal now.

Again, thank you.

 

[nathanbs]

Do tell him that we (I at least) are not using it all by itself. It is just part of a mix.

BTW, not all "professionals" know how theory applies (sometimes converts) in real world...so do not bank on his "soil science major" too much.

In my world...lots of design engineers (very smart people) have no idea or a clue how to build what they are designing. Throw them in the field and it is like watching a headless chicken run around. It is not even funny.

I know what you are saying about degrees and formal education however this guy is a bonsai guy and he is somehow getting redwoods to do very well in Riverside which is hell on earth when many other people cant seem to get them to last for more than a couple years an average in Southern California. He and R. Neil have been trading notes for some time now. I think he is up there as we speak.

 

[Poink88]

I know what you are saying about degrees and formal education however this guy is a bonsai guy and he is somehow getting redwoods to do very well in Riverside which is hell on earth when many other people cant seem to get them to last for more than a couple years an average in Southern California. He and R. Neil have been trading notes for some time now. I think he is up there as we speak.

Sounds like he knows his stuff then (but still very skeptical about his initial lava assessment).

I'll wait what he says further about lava.

 

[Vance Wood]

I know what you are saying about degrees and formal education however this guy is a bonsai guy and he is somehow getting redwoods to do very well in Riverside which is hell on earth when many other people cant seem to get them to last for more than a couple years an average in Southern California. He and R. Neil have been trading notes for some time now. I think he is up there as we speak.

I missed something----I think. Are we referring to Darth Nookie?

 

[Poink88]

I missed something----I think. Are we referring to Darth Nookie?

Vance,

Read what he quoted (that I said).

 

[nip]

to the detriment of many young bonsai enthusiasts on this forum that will quickly save a buck and not give it a chance.

The quickest way to detrimentally influence young bonsai enthusiasts like myself is to hike your leg and 'shower' us with arrogance. Fortunately, no brilliant individual informed me when I was 12 that my attempt to grow bonsai without akadama was futile. Not everyone lives on the Dark Star and can easily access or afford to pot dozens of trees with your mix, especially young people. No one disputes the validity of akadama, but to insist it required to grow premium trees is delusional.
I will try to remember to take pictures next time I repot solely for the purpose of disputing a subjective topic, let me make a note to myself on the back of my still perfect NCAA bracket.

 

[Darth Tanuki]

So Vance, let me approach this from a different direction. Are you saying that you know so much about bonsai that you can assuredly say that there does not exist a soil mix that works better than all others? You're saying it is impossible to have a singularly superior mix for all climates?

By the way, things grow great in 100% lava or pumice, but they grow / extend too rapidly in these substrates to develop acceptable ramification.

Kind regards,
Nookie, a.k.a. god mix worshipper

 

[GrimLore]

"Popcorn Thread" It is entertaining and somewhere along the line I must mention that basic types of "mixes" work differently in different conditions. Also having been able to auto mist and water a lot as well as fertilize a lot my routine and substrate is based on Walter Pall and his methods. It is not EXACT as he does but the principle and logic is and slightly modified for my part of the world. What WORKS FOR YOU is what works and you can easily develop a well rounded solution for all of the above to suit your personal needs and that of your specimens. My Wife has been doing this far longer then me and deals solely with tropicals here in the North East. I deal with everything but Tropicals except when I help her with her specimens. We live in the same house and enjoy Bonsai although she does what she does for her reasons and I do what I do for my reasons and all works out ok...

Grimmy

 

[Vance Wood]

So Vance, let me approach this from a different direction. Are you saying that you know so much about bonsai that you can assuredly say that there does not exist a soil mix that works better than all others? You're saying it is impossible to have a singularly superior mix for all climates?

By the way, things grow great in 100% lava or pumice, but they grow / extend too rapidly in these substrates to develop acceptable ramification.

Kind regards,
Nookie, a.k.a. god mix worshipper

First of all you come at this particular question from the view point that I am a know-it-all that will not change my mind. That is not true and I am mildly offended by it. Secondly the basic question: I am not saying that there is not a singularly superior mix for all climates; just that your assessment that it must contain Akadama to be any good at all. In other words if there is a singularly superior mix ----it ain't yours.

 

[Poink88]

So Vance, let me approach this from a different direction. Are you saying that you know so much about bonsai that you can assuredly say that there does not exist a soil mix that works better than all others? You're saying it is impossible to have a singularly superior mix for all climates?

That is not what he said. Most are reacting to your post which I quote.

Akadama may not be necessary for premium tree growth, but premium results without akadama is about as common as a winning lottery ticket. If you disagree, I would like to see pictures of "premium" roots grown without akadama and how it was done.

I will dare say that there is NO singular superior mix for all climates. Please tell me/us which one mix that you believe is.

 

[nathanbs]

First of all you come at this particular question from the view point that I am a know-it-all that will not change my mind. That is not true and I am mildly offended by it. Secondly the basic question: I am not saying that there is not a singularly superior mix for all climates; just that your assessment that it must contain Akadama to be any good at all. In other words if there is a singularly superior mix ----it ain't yours.

That is not what he said. Most are reacting to your post which I quote.



I will dare say that there is NO singular superior mix for all climates. Please tell me/us which one mix that you believe is.

Im going to have to defend Darthfunkel here and say if there had to be one soil and one soil only. Granted it will work better for some than others. It would probably have to be mix of akadama, pumice, and lava(i hesitate on this one because of what i stated earlier.) The ratios are up to you based on your needs. Drainage layers and top dressings are welcome. Fertilizing will obviously be necessary

 

[Poink88]

Im going to have to defend Darthfunkel here and say if there had to be one soil and one soil only. Granted it will work better for some than others. It would probably have to be mix of akadama, pumice, and lava(i hesitate on this one because of what i stated earlier.) The ratios are up to you based on your needs. Drainage layers and top dressings are welcome. Fertilizing will obviously be necessary

Then that is NOT one superior mix for all climates.

 

[nathanbs]

Then that is NOT one superior mix for all climates.

If someone is stating that an exact ratio of certain ingredients is the ONLY way then thats obsurd. I am saying that a mixture of those ingredients is superior to a mixture of any other ingredients as a universal worldwide bonsai mix.

 

[nathanbs]

Then that is NOT one superior mix for all climates.

Perhaps akadama, lava, pumice equal parts would still be the best one size fits all if you had to only pick one mix and could not change the ratios or ingredients

 

[GrimLore]

"If" I ever bothered to try an all around mix for all climates I am pretty certain it would contain Turkey Grit, Pumice and Pine horse bedding, maybe crushed Lava for color... We don't need no stinking dirt.

Grimmy

 

[Poink88]

Perhaps akadama, lava, pumice equal parts would still be the best one size fits all if you had to only pick one mix and could not change the ratios or ingredients

We may be interpreting his statement differently but it may be good all around mix but not the best mix for one particular locale.

Example question...
Is there a better mix for extremely hot weather?
Is there a better mix for extremely dry weather?
Is there a better mix for extremely cold weather?
Is there a better mix for extremely wet weather?

I bet you there is.

 

[coh]

For those of you who use one of the "standard" akadama/pumice/lava mixes - if akadama were to become completely unavailable (and it very well could happen someday), how would you change your mix? Would you replace the akadama with some other component, and if so, what? Or would you make a larger change to your soil mixture?

Chris

 

[nathanbs]

For those of you who use one of the "standard" akadama/pumice/lava mixes - if akadama were to become completely unavailable (and it very well could happen someday), how would you change your mix? Would you replace the akadama with some other component, and if so, what? Or would you make a larger change to your soil mixture?

Chris

yes this is a very good important question because despite what the akadama naysayers may say it is a one-of-a-kind product. I feel like the most important characteristics of akadama that I personally would want to mimic is the way it breaks down over time, and they way it holds moisture so well even prior to breaking down. I'm not as concerned about its CEC property. Did I mention its also lightweight?
Decomposed granite may offer the breaking down characteristic but it is ohh soo heavy. Moisture can be achieved with quite a few different components so not as concerned. I probably would consider a mix of 1/8"-1/4" DG, pumice, and fir bark. Putting a top dressing on trees that needed it.