Big fat overgrown spruce-All sprucoids please advise?

[crust]

Here is a big Engelmann I unwisely bought a couple years back. This year I did not pluck back extending growth in the spring under the advice to let it extend and strengthen the plant, then the plan was to let it grow and fertilize then cut it back later and it should set buds for next year. I have never done this process with spruce but then I am not well versed in spruce anyway. I am in zone 3. All sprucoids please advise.

 

[0soyoung]

Once new growth is fully hardened, buds should be evident. I prefer to wait until August as this gives more time for to feed nitrogen (for budding) and for the productive new foliage to build strength (starch reserves) in the tree. Regardless, cut back to a bud if you want the branchlet; else to a node (in other words, a branchlet without a bud is certain to become lifeless). This late season cutback will generate back buds, some even on the trunk.

IMHO, early season pinching is analogous to breaking pine candles - primarily, it limits the length of new growth; secondarily it may induce a adventitious budding (and a second flushing) at the base of the new shoot.

 

[wireme]

Here is a big Engelmann I unwisely bought a couple years back. This year I did not pluck back extending growth in the spring under the advice to let it extend and strengthen the plant, then the plan was to let it grow and fertilize then cut it back later and it should set buds for next year. I have never done this process with spruce but then I am not well versed in spruce anyway. I am in zone 3. All sprucoids please advise.View attachment 152526

I have tried what you describe a little bit. I didn't get super backbudding the same season by pruning midsummer or close to hardening time. Now I like to leave it all there to gather strength for the year and prune back as hard as appropriate in early spring. All the backbudding happens during budset midsummer.
I think there is probably a time and place for both pruning and plucking depending. Like plucking at the advanced refinement stages maybe but lately I'm sticking with just extend and prune with everything just to see.
I suspect my timing differs from everyone else's but I like what I see and will stick to that for the time being as well. I'm in zone 3 too.
Looking forward to others advice.

 

[crust]

Once new growth is fully hardened, buds should be evident. I prefer to wait until August as this gives more time for to feed nitrogen (for budding) and for the productive new foliage to build strength (starch reserves) in the tree. Regardless, cut back to a bud if you want the branchlet; else to a node (in other words, a branchlet without a bud is certain to become lifeless). This late season cutback will generate back buds, some even on the trunk.

IMHO, early season pinching is analogous to breaking pine candles - primarily, it limits the length of new growth; secondarily it may induce an adventitious budding (and a second flushing) at the base of the new shoot.

Ok, I am not sure if I follow you. The spruce extends expanding buds in the spring. One can pluck/pinch these shorter in the spring or wait and let them grow until they harden and form a new dormant bud at the tip. After this point, the new hardened growth is allowed to strengthen unmolested through fertilization then later this year's growth is cut back no deeper than this years growth.
My question is:
* Can I cut this year growth back to within 1/8 inch of last year's wood?
*Is it common to cut back every extention this hard?
* What part of August?

 

[crust]

I have tried what you describe a little bit. I didn't get super backbudding the same season by pruning midsummer or close to hardening time. Now I like to leave it all there to gather strength for the year and prune back as hard as appropriate in early spring. All the backbudding happens during budset midsummer.
I think there is probably a time and place for both pruning and plucking depending. Like plucking at the advanced refinement stages maybe but lately I'm sticking with just extend and prune with everything just to see.
I suspect my timing differs from everyone else's but I like what I see and will stick to that for the time being as well. I'm in zone 3 too.
Looking forward to others advice.

Hmm, pruning off last years growth in the spring gives it no time to form new buds--this seems destructive. How does it react? New buds are obviously not quickly formed and expand that year or does it just cause back buds to take over?

 

[wireme]

Hmm, pruning off last years growth in the spring gives it no time to form new buds--this seems destructive. How does it react? New buds are obviously not quickly formed and expand that year or does it just cause back buds to take over?

New buds don't form and grow the same season, not unless you get a second flush and that has been very rare for me.
The tree grows and sets buds just like normal but will backbud at the normal time very well. It's a delayed response, you don't get to enjoy the results of the spring prune until the following spring.

Obviously you can't just prune down to nothing, you can even leave quite a lot as long as at least some terminal bud are removed. There's really no need to prune way back to the first inside buds right away if they are weak or not numerous, they can be left inside for a while and pruned back to once they are strong and numerous enough. I'd need a bit more thinking time than I have right now to describe how I decide how far back to prune. You may be pruning off last years growth on the exterior of the tree but not touching last years growth that is closer to the trunk.

 

[Lazylightningny]

What I did this year is cut the extending buds in the spring in half. I then got a plethora of new buds. When growth hardened, i removed all new terminal buds. The tree exploded with new buds, and many have/are opening. This could be just a CBS phenomenon. I'm in zone 6.

 

[0soyoung]

What I did this year is cut the extending buds in the spring in half. I then got a plethora of new buds. When growth hardened, i removed all new terminal buds. The tree exploded with new buds, and many have/are opening. This could be just a CBS phenomenon. I'm in zone 6.

You are saying that you trimmed the ends of the new growth twice already this year?

 

[wireme]

Ok, I am not sure if I follow you. The spruce extends expanding buds in the spring. One can pluck/pinch these shorter in the spring or wait and let them grow until they harden and form a new dormant bud at the tip. After this point, the new hardened growth is allowed to strengthen unmolested through fertilization then later this year's growth is cut back no deeper than this years growth.
My question is:
* Can I cut this year growth back to within 1/8 inch of last year's wood?
*Is it common to cut back every extention this hard?
* What part of August?

I'm surprised you're not getting more response yet, I was looking forward to seeing more on this too. Maybe not many people are following the grow and prune back without plucking method yet and most are plucking or mixing. I know that Adair has mentioned the grow and prune thing a few times as something that Boon recommends now so he must have some idea on how they do it there. Some students of R.N. here too, looks like he follows this approach during the development stage at least?

A part of your question to Oso caught my eye here, no further than last years growth? If you don't want the full length and there is sufficient inside then cut it off I say, why not? I'll often prune further in anyways.
It really has seemed to me with past experience that if I'm going to let it grow without plucking and then prune that the trees response is the same whether pruning is done in summer or spring that's why I let growth stay to drink some sun for the whole season. I'm just a guy who's tried pruning a few different ways in my backyard though, no great work to back it up, you know that.

 

[M. Frary]

To get back budding for Christmas trees we always shaved them with machetes between mid July to mid August. After new growth has started to harden off but before next year's buds are set. You can cut back into last year's growth too to promote back budding.

 

[Tycoss]

Love the discussion so far. I live in zone 3 and have some white spruce (similar to englemann). I cut off growth late this June, following advice from wireme and fourteener. It backbudded all along the primary branches, and right back to the trunk. I'll post images in the next few days, but this method seemed to work well for a collected spruce in our climate.

 

[Tycoss]

Also, I always left a dormant bud, and cut off three quarters of new growth in stronger areas. I left weaker areas (one or two dormant buds) alone.

 

[sorce]

@PiñonJ

Does RH subscribe to early pinching spruce?
It doesn't seem like it.

Seems an energy waster, or a practice of impatience.

Zone3... don't have time to prune twice.!

I'm with Frary.

Sorce

 

[PiñonJ]

@PiñonJ

Does RH subscribe to early pinching spruce?
It doesn't seem like it.

Seems an energy waster, or a practice of impatience.

Zone3... don't have time to prune twice.!

I'm with Frary.

Sorce

You mean RN? It depends on the developmental stage and there are some species nuances. While in development, he advocates waiting until new shoots harden off, then pruning to stimulate back budding. Some species will reliably bud at the prune site, but the safest is to prune to an existing immature bud. For spruces in refinement, generally he pinches elongating buds in the spring to stimulate existing back buds to open. However, he does not recommend this on Engelmanns, because, if there are no immature buds in the new shoot, an undesirable whorl of buds will form at its base. Therefore, he waits until the buds have extended, but not hardened off. As soon as he can identify an immature bud in the new shoot, he'll prune. Again, this is only when the tree is in refinement.

 

[PiñonJ]

Some species will reliably bud at the prune site

By the way, P. engelmanii is not one of these species.

 

[Walter Pall]

To increase ramification: let grow from March on. Do nothing other than place in sun, water extensively and feed a lot, also with nitrogen. Then, depending on your location from beginning of August to end of August cut back with scissors everything that has grown this year. The cuts should make all new growth the same length. The long ones are cut much more and the short ones less. Continue to place in sun, water and feed aggressively. Then lots of new buds will appear and you are all set for next spring.
To make new growth short: Pinch with fingers or fine scissor in April to May when the new shoots are stretched and still soft. Make them all the same length, meaning to pinch the long ones much more back than the shorter ones. Result: new growth will appear in June/July and it will be shorter and the needle are smaller. This one does with 'finished' tees.

 

[ghues]

For RN's videos (see tab Mirai videos), on this topic......check them out at https://www.portlandbonsai.org/

 

[augustine]

First off I like your spruce very much. Spruce are beautiful trees but a real pain in the neck.

Andy Smith of Golden Arrow Bonsai removes buds at the "fuzzy egg" stage (when buds are fat and fuzzy but before they extend). New buds form which can be pruned back 3 to 6 weeks later. This info specifically for Black Hills spruces but his website states that it is generally applicable to Engleman and Colorado spruce.

Disclaimer - I've only had my BH spruce since spring of 16. We did an initial styling in April and Andy advised not to do much the rest of the year. (Tree was collected in spring of 2014 but Andy determined that it was strong enough for some styling.)

This year I did remove some buds at the terminals and got back budding which I left alone. (Tree was repotted this year but I did not have to root prune.) Next year I will be more aggressive. (I will see Andy in October and discuss timing of general pruning.)

I have followed Andy's process on a dwarf Black spruce (Mariana) and it back buds like crazy. I prune back to inner buds in the fall. However this is younger nursery grown material. In the past I have pinched the new growth which also worked well but think the bud removal produced more back budding.

Obviously there are different ways to manage foliage on spruce. The only thing I would say for certain is to be conservative. I think we can be fooled by a tree which seems vigorous and do too much too fast on conifers in general and this goes double for older collected material.

 

[Johnathan]

Sorry for jumping in with a new question, but I just want to make sure I'm following.

When you guys are saying cut back to a bud you mean cut here right?

 

[Walter Pall]

Yes, cut there or rather even closer to the branch.