How to create large black pines?

River's Edge

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What is the point of a pond basket in this scheme as opposed to, say, just planting it and using a sharp spade to root prune in situ every year?
Colandars, Pond Baskets, Grow Bags are often used in combination with growing in the ground. Easier root containment. Cutting the thicker escaping roots promote finer ramifications of the rootball and it tends to discourage tap roots.
Either can work if appropriate steps are taken.
 

River's Edge

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But if you leave it out of the ground the colander does this automatically.
That is correct. However combining the two approaches can accomplish greater trunk growth at the same time. This is why the original appproach to using colander for pines was modified to putting a smaller colander in a larger colander after a while. The colander or pond basket in the ground works much the same way, allowing some roots to escape and retaining the rootball . The primary advantage to the ground placement is the stability of the growing environment, more so than just the colander or pond basket on the bench. I have found the growing season is extended in the ground and the trunks grow faster when the colander, pond basket, grow bag etc. Are placed in the ground. I keep the seedling in small pot then transfer to colander then colander in the ground or grow bed until desired size of trunk is attained. This is contrary to the old method of just growing the trunk first i realize but i am multi-tasking my approach and combining techniques. This allows me to develop root ball, take to the bench when and if desired, develop lower branching while switching escape branches and developing taper. My Nursery is small but i focus on JBP. Using this approach , The pines attain 3 inch trunk diameter in seven to eight years. Larger pines are possible in that time if you are not cutting the stems for radial roots as i do with all my seedlings. This sets back the initial growth pattern. But then this is just another example of combining techniques rather than just putting a seedling in the ground to grow the trunk, then work on branches, then work on foliage, then work on pads. Here is a picture showing the technique at work in a portion of my nursery. These are 18 month old JBP placed out in grow beds but retained in colandars. I will switch computers and post another picture of the same tree's at 36 months. Please keep in mind that I have automatic watering systems, a long growing season, full sun southern exposure and use lots of fertilizer. The seed is obtained from a grower in Japan as well as other sources.
It works for me. My intent is to share ideas not argue with those who wish to try something different.
 

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Toraidento

Shohin
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That is correct. However combining the two approaches can accomplish greater trunk growth at the same time. This is why the original appproach to using colander for pines was modified to putting a smaller colander in a larger colander after a while. The colander or pond basket in the ground works much the same way, allowing some roots to escape and retaining the rootball . The primary advantage to the ground placement is the stability of the growing environment, more so than just the colander or pond basket on the bench. I have found the growing season is extended in the ground and the trunks grow faster when the colander, pond basket, grow bag etc. Are placed in the ground. I keep the seedling in small pot then transfer to colander then colander in the ground or grow bed until desired size of trunk is attained. This is contrary to the old method of just growing the trunk first i realize but i am multi-tasking my approach and combining techniques. This allows me to develop root ball, take to the bench when and if desired, develop lower branching while switching escape branches and developing taper. My Nursery is small but i focus on JBP. Using this approach , The pines attain 3 inch trunk diameter in seven to eight years. Larger pines are possible in that time if you are not cutting the stems for radial roots as i do with all my seedlings. This sets back the initial growth pattern. But then this is just another example of combining techniques rather than just putting a seedling in the ground to grow the trunk, then work on branches, then work on foliage, then work on pads. Here is a picture showing the technique at work in a portion of my nursery. These are 18 month old JBP placed out in grow beds but retained in colandars. I will switch computers and post another picture of the same tree's at 36 months. Please keep in mind that I have automatic watering systems, a long growing season, full sun southern exposure and use lots of fertilizer. The seed is obtained from a grower in Japan as well as other sources.
It works for me. My intent is to share ideas not argue with those who wish to try something different.
So what are u using in your beds just planters soil cause that would be very expensive to put boots mix in that much beds
 

Toraidento

Shohin
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Yeah for me ATM in finding it very expensive to use boons mix akadama and lava rock is costly and I don't have a local supply
 

Toraidento

Shohin
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I am trying turface I know a lot of u guys are against it but it's 10bucks for a 50lbs bag then I go online and buy pumice drainage layer couple gals. 3.5 gals. Lava rock and 5gals. Small pumice for seedling pots and it's like 175bucs that's high u guys got a secret on soil cheaper?
 

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Shohin
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Sorry didn't mean to change the subject maybe I should take this to a different string
 

Adair M

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That is correct. However combining the two approaches can accomplish greater trunk growth at the same time. This is why the original appproach to using colander for pines was modified to putting a smaller colander in a larger colander after a while. The colander or pond basket in the ground works much the same way, allowing some roots to escape and retaining the rootball . The primary advantage to the ground placement is the stability of the growing environment, more so than just the colander or pond basket on the bench. I have found the growing season is extended in the ground and the trunks grow faster when the colander, pond basket, grow bag etc. Are placed in the ground. I keep the seedling in small pot then transfer to colander then colander in the ground or grow bed until desired size of trunk is attained. This is contrary to the old method of just growing the trunk first i realize but i am multi-tasking my approach and combining techniques. This allows me to develop root ball, take to the bench when and if desired, develop lower branching while switching escape branches and developing taper. My Nursery is small but i focus on JBP. Using this approach , The pines attain 3 inch trunk diameter in seven to eight years. Larger pines are possible in that time if you are not cutting the stems for radial roots as i do with all my seedlings. This sets back the initial growth pattern. But then this is just another example of combining techniques rather than just putting a seedling in the ground to grow the trunk, then work on branches, then work on foliage, then work on pads. Here is a picture showing the technique at work in a portion of my nursery. These are 18 month old JBP placed out in grow beds but retained in colandars. I will switch computers and post another picture of the same tree's at 36 months. Please keep in mind that I have automatic watering systems, a long growing season, full sun southern exposure and use lots of fertilizer. The seed is obtained from a grower in Japan as well as other sources.
It works for me. My intent is to share ideas not argue with those who wish to try something different.
Frank, I thought you were a hinoki cypress guy!
 

River's Edge

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So what are u using in your beds just planters soil cause that would be very expensive to put boots mix in that much beds
My grow beds contain mostly pumice 80 % . The young pines also have coarse grit 1/4 " diameter plus a local product called sea soil. The japanese maples, Korean Hornbeams, Chojubai etc. Are in pure pumice. The colandars contain bonsai soil mix.
I use pumice for the collected trees for the first two years then switch to my regular Bonsai soil. My regular Bonsai soil is a variation of my teachers. I use 20% Akadama, 40%pumice 15% granite 15% black lava. Those are the four main components of most mixes that i use, with the exception of Kanuma.
You are correct, there are far more economical options, i am operating a specialty bonsai nursery not a large commercial operation. Less than 500 trees at a time. It occupies me full time, except for fly fishing, salmon fishing, wood working, retirement, travels etc. Oh i forgot chores.
 

James W.

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Just a word on planting in colanders or pond baskets or pots. The soil outside the basket needs to be as well draining as the mix inside the basket. If you plant a pond basket with bonsai soil into sticky clay soil (like my yard) you will end up with a pond in a basket. You will notice that @Riversedgebonsai has all his planted in good mix in raised beds.
 

Gurudas

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Sacrifice branches “off to the side” don’t do much. Terminal (apex) sacrifice trunks do.

The way it’s done is find a place with three branches at a node, or reduce branches down to three. Select one to be a future branch. Select another to be the future trunk. The remaining branch will be the sacrifice trunk. Stake it up vertical. Plant the tree in the ground. Let the sacrifice branch grow unimpeded. Keep the future branch cut back and decandle it. Let the future trunk grow a little, but don’t let it get long and lanky. Make sure the sacrifice does not shade out the future branch and trunk.

After a year or so, remove the sacrifice. Look for another node on the “future trunk” branch, and repeat the process.

Repeat until you’re happy with the trunk. Then really start working on the branches. The idea is to keep the branches small while building trunk with the sacrifices.

Here’s an example of a tree developed that way:

View attachment 167893

Adair, I have 3 branches at a node that I can use as a leader, sacrifice branch, and future branch. However, they are in different degrees of strength in growth. Would you necessarily recommend the strongest grower as the sacrifice branch? What about the weakest of the 3 and the moderate one?
 

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Shohin
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Adair, I have 3 branches at a node that I can use as a leader, sacrifice branch, and future branch. However, they are in different degrees of strength in growth. Would you necessarily recommend the strongest grower as the sacrifice branch? What about the weakest of the 3 and the moderate one?
Ok let me give this a shot before he answers to see if I can get it right after all my studying. hehe!!! Ok 1st sacrifice should be toward what will eventually be the back of your plant so when cut the wound is not so noticeable. Then a needle pluck down to 6 to 8 pairs on the future leader/trunk and future branch should even out growth?????? I think u leave sacrifice alone by not plucking needles on it it should take off and grow faster. I think that is correct but IM going by what I have read and watched on youtube. Adair is this advice correct???? Im just trying to make sure Im understanding what Ive been reading
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Ok let me give this a shot before he answers to see if I can get it right after all my studying. hehe!!! Ok 1st sacrifice should be toward what will eventually be the back of your plant so when cut the wound is not so noticeable. Then a needle pluck down to 6 to 8 pairs on the future leader/trunk and future branch should even out growth?????? I think u leave sacrifice alone by not plucking needles on it it should take off and grow faster. I think that is correct but IM going by what I have read and watched on youtube. Adair is this advice correct???? Im just trying to make sure Im understanding what Ive been reading
That’s pretty close. More:
Getting to a big trunk quickly - JBP
2 YO Seedling gift - Mikawa JBP
Pines unhealthy?
 

Gurudas

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Rick, thanks for trying.

Brian, thank you for clarifying and the additional resources!
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Brian, please excuse if I’ve missed the answer to this question: would I need to place anything under the roots when I plant my trees in the ground to encourage radial root pattern?
That always helps create a radial spread. JBP can be tricky to “collect” when grown in the ground, because the feeder roots get away from the trunk pretty fast (3-4 years). Since they grow fast in general, you can still get pretty good growth in Anderson flats sitting on the ground while reducing the risk of loss associated with transitioning the tree from the ground to a pot.
 

Anthony

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Now testing - in colander in the "ground"
Good Day
Anthony

This is a rooted hardwood cutting.

jbp23.jpg
 

Toraidento

Shohin
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I know Frank @Riversedgebonsai said use pond basket/ colander in the ground is good but I'm still not understanding why. I thought the point of pond baskets was for air pruning roots? If u put the pond basket in the ground doesn't this defeat putting it in a pond basket? Also the idea of root pruning is that to get the root ball bigger to force roots toward surface to help with nabari? Not exactly sure about air pruning roots?
 
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