Pre-Bonsai What is it?

[Brian Underwood]

Huh, I guess I don't know. Perhaps I should have said 10 years or less, but when I buy trees I usually look for something that CAN be finished in 5 or less. CAN, meaning if everything went well and the tree developed as expected by an experienced artist. Maybe a new word to throw into the mix is "Unstyled." I almost never want something that has been extensively wired other than movement in the trunk. What is the definition you propose? Once we have definitions for words then and only then can they be used effectively.

 

[Smoke]

OK---Pre-Bonsai at some point has to have been---not Pre-Bonsai.

....and as long as YOU see it that way, you cannot understand the difference.

Pre bonsai was never not pre bonsai because someone has always grown the material with bonsai in mind. Therefore prebonsai will have root grafts instead of 4 inches above the soil. The seedling will have been bent at the soil line to introduce movement at an early age. Many junipers are grown around a stake ( not my favorite method) to give movement to thin trunks. Diciduous trees will be grown for taper by directional pruning and trunk chopping.

Now Muranaka, which has some really good material, (and I'm speaking of Kanemi not George, although George does too) will buy small material from regular landscape nurseries and cut it down or radically change the look of a piece of storebought not grown for bonsai material. I have many pictures from 28 years ago of some of the material Kanemi offered as pre bonsai material. When looking at this material many on this forum would say that it is finished bonsai. To some it is, but those that work on junipers can tell the difference. The thing is, with this material, the material will probably not sell right away. the longer it sits and ages the better it becomes as the patina of age starts to develop. Deadwood opens up and turns silver, buds fill in the gaps left by intial pruning, and branches develop as the years go by since that caretaker now is moving in a bonsai way rather than a landscape way.

While each may have a different starting point, the buyer will have never seen the material as landscape material. They will only see it as pre bonsai because the tree has only been introduced to the public after the bonsai cuts have been made.

The real key is, "A person will never buy a pre bonsai at a landscape nursery, while a person will always buy a pre bonsai at a bonsai nursery." The bonsai nursery may make his material from cuttings and grow it himself in a bonsai way or he will buy material from a landscape nursery and cut and prune it to look more bonsai, either way it is now pre bonsai.

Buying a plant at a landscape nursery with the necessary attributes to become bonsai is just buying the one the bonsai guy missed. Not pre bonsai but engageing enough to become one. After you cut on it, then it will be pre bonsai.

This tree is purpose grown procumbens from Frank Yee in Southern California. He grows bonsai material. He could easily grow landscape material also. This is pre bonsai. Purpose grown.

 

[Smoke]

I started with landscape trees. Not pre bonsai in any way. What I did over about five years was turn them into pre bonsai material.

If I were a seller, you would have never seen them as un pre bonsai and would have never have known the difference.

In Japan there are countless dozens of steps in the cultivation of material. Some only grow out the seedlings and then sell them off, another guy grows it our for six years and gets the trunk. Then the next grower puts on some branches. Then the material is potted up when it has a decent nebari and branches and is almost finished. Then it is sold to someone like Suzuki who will polish it and refine it to the point of entering it in Kokufu.

 

[edprocoat]

I usually ignore terms like pre-bonsai, and for that matter I find you may as well ignore the terms bonsai as well in most online offerings. I have seen sites that offer pre-bonsai kits, little saplings with a pot and some bonsai mix and a few pieces of wire. I think the old saying, Caveat Emptor applies to all purchases, especially bonsai and bonsai related materials. I have recently came across three different sites that offer seeds in their pre-bonsai sections, how long would it take for a JBP seed to develop into what i would consider a pre-bonsai, with my luck with pines probably never. They also had chinese elm and several varities of Japanese maple "pre-bonsai" seeds. As for what I said earlier about ignoring the term bonsai in most online sales, check out some established sites as well as places like ebay and see some of the offerings they have for sale as Bonsai, the only bonsai qualities many of them offer is the small pot, and many times its plastic.

What would I consider a decent pre-bonsai, from what I have seen they are trees that have had controlled growth practises performed, some wiring and some decent qualities like good roots and decent branching, they usually range around $150.00 to $200.00 in price and look as if they are worth every penny. They need a better pot and some styling and most seem to have been set upon the road to their future style, something I have not really wanted to purchase as I enjoy the journey more than reaching the destination. As foolish as this may sound I would not buy a famous tree for $100.00to keep and look at, I may buy that tree at that incredible price to sell it for 10 times profit, but for it to be a Bonsai for me to keep and enjoy and be proud of I would have had to bring it to that point, whether it became what I dreamed it would or was killed by me or lost or stolen I would have had the personal satisfaction of saying, I done that!

ed

 

[edprocoat]

Hey, I just noticed I am Pre-Bonsai here on the forum. All bow before my status !!

ed

 

[Vance Wood]

I usually ignore terms like pre-bonsai, and for that matter I find you may as well ignore the terms bonsai as well in most online offerings. I have seen sites that offer pre-bonsai kits, little saplings with a pot and some bonsai mix and a few pieces of wire. I think the old saying, Caveat Emptor applies to all purchases, especially bonsai and bonsai related materials. I have recently came across three different sites that offer seeds in their pre-bonsai sections, how long would it take for a JBP seed to develop into what i would consider a pre-bonsai, with my luck with pines probably never. They also had chinese elm and several varities of Japanese maple "pre-bonsai" seeds. As for what I said earlier about ignoring the term bonsai in most online sales, check out some established sites as well as places like ebay and see some of the offerings they have for sale as Bonsai, the only bonsai qualities many of them offer is the small pot, and many times its plastic.

What would I consider a decent pre-bonsai, from what I have seen they are trees that have had controlled growth practises performed, some wiring and some decent qualities like good roots and decent branching, they usually range around $150.00 to $200.00 in price and look as if they are worth every penny. They need a better pot and some styling and most seem to have been set upon the road to their future style, something I have not really wanted to purchase as I enjoy the journey more than reaching the destination. As foolish as this may sound I would not buy a famous tree for $100.00to keep and look at, I may buy that tree at that incredible price to sell it for 10 times profit, but for it to be a Bonsai for me to keep and enjoy and be proud of I would have had to bring it to that point, whether it became what I dreamed it would or was killed by me or lost or stolen I would have had the personal satisfaction of saying, I done that!

ed

I pretty much agree with at least the end philosophy. There is little pleasing (for me) in owning someone else's work, God bless those who do.

 

[Vance Wood]

The real key is, "A person will never buy a pre bonsai at a landscape nursery, while a person will always buy a pre bonsai at a bonsai nursery." The bonsai nursery may make his material from cuttings and grow it himself in a bonsai way or he will buy material from a landscape nursery and cut and prune it to look more bonsai, either way it is now pre bonsai.

Buying a plant at a landscape nursery with the necessary attributes to become bonsai is just buying the one the bonsai guy missed. Not pre bonsai but engageing enough to become one. After you cut on it, then it will be pre bonsai..

I have been trying to make this point for years but somehow don't seem to get the point across. A lot of people are spending a good deal of money to buy trees that may or may not be worth the additional expense where they could spend half as much and get a tree of similar value if they know how to look for it.

 

[Smoke]

I usually ignore terms like pre-bonsai, and for that matter I find you may as well ignore the terms bonsai as well in most online offerings. I have seen sites that offer pre-bonsai kits, little saplings with a pot and some bonsai mix and a few pieces of wire. I think the old saying, Caveat Emptor applies to all purchases, especially bonsai and bonsai related materials. I have recently came across three different sites that offer seeds in their pre-bonsai sections, how long would it take for a JBP seed to develop into what i would consider a pre-bonsai, with my luck with pines probably never. They also had chinese elm and several varities of Japanese maple "pre-bonsai" seeds. As for what I said earlier about ignoring the term bonsai in most online sales, check out some established sites as well as places like ebay and see some of the offerings they have for sale as Bonsai, the only bonsai qualities many of them offer is the small pot, and many times its plastic.

What would I consider a decent pre-bonsai, from what I have seen they are trees that have had controlled growth practises performed, some wiring and some decent qualities like good roots and decent branching, they usually range around $150.00 to $200.00 in price and look as if they are worth every penny. They need a better pot and some styling and most seem to have been set upon the road to their future style, something I have not really wanted to purchase as I enjoy the journey more than reaching the destination. As foolish as this may sound I would not buy a famous tree for $100.00to keep and look at, I may buy that tree at that incredible price to sell it for 10 times profit, but for it to be a Bonsai for me to keep and enjoy and be proud of I would have had to bring it to that point, whether it became what I dreamed it would or was killed by me or lost or stolen I would have had the personal satisfaction of saying, I done that!

ed

I pretty much agree with at least the end philosophy. There is little pleasing (for me) in owning someone else's work, God bless those who do.

When a person has attained the skills to take five nine foot tall 1.5 inch trunked yard trees to pre bonsai and beyond, there is personal satisfaction in knowing that you have attained the skills to do it yourself. Once those skills are attained, limiting oneself to trees only styled or designed by oneself is rather foolish. I don't need to prove myself to me anymore or anyone else. Buying works started by someone else and changing a branch here, twisting and turning a tree in a pot or changing the direction of an apex opens a whole new world to bonsai, not counting the decades of works it took to get it to that point. Bonsai is not about the here and now, it is about the past and future. Expecting a tree to be a singular act is rather selfish and narcissistic. We are all caretakers, Mother Nature can givith and she can also taketh away, sometimes overnight.

 

[Vance Wood]

When a person has attained the skills to take five nine foot tall 1.5 inch trunked yard trees to pre bonsai and beyond, there is personal satisfaction in knowing that you have attained the skills to do it yourself. Once those skills are attained, limiting oneself to trees only styled or designed by oneself is rather foolish. I don't need to prove myself to me anymore or anyone else. Buying works started by someone else and changing a branch here, twisting and turning a tree in a pot or changing the direction of an apex opens a whole new world to bonsai, not counting the decades of works it took to get it to that point. Bonsai is not about the here and now, it is about the past and future. Expecting a tree to be a singular act is rather selfish and narcissistic. We are all caretakers, Mother Nature can givith and she can also taketh away, sometimes overnight.

I think we have come to the point of "What ever turns you on". I still prefer my own work because for me, the joy of bonsai is in the getting there. It has nothing to do with pride, or any other psychological moniker you can hang on it. I no more want a finished work, even a Kimura tree, than I want a pair of mis-matched shoes. I look at Kimura's work, or Walter Pall's for that matter, and desire to have that kind of eye and insight but not necessarily the actual work. I just do not have that desire. Other people do and I do not hold that against them or condemn them for doing so.

 

[Klytus]

The stuff slipped to the unsuspecting at the members contribution stand of the annual Bonsai club shows,grow it on!

 

[Bill S]

Klytus that and the juniper that has been growing in the same can for 8-9 years looks good on top but because root work wasn't done will take another 8 years to reduce the root mass to managable in a small pot.

Lots of room for error, which gives insight to the grower, some will give better results, so it's still buyer beware.

Vance, I'd agree it is materials worked on with the intent to be bonsai in the future, as others have suggested root work, chops, branch/trunk wiring for shape, etc. are part of the list of work that may or may not have been done with an eye towards the future tree. Price or origin are not important as far as I am concerned as to what the definition is. Is a pine seedling grown by a bonsai nursery the same as a landscape nursery grown pine, not in my book it isn't, there is time removed from the process of making it a "bonsai", how much you pay for it depends on a whole slew of things including, age, size, nursery reputation( usually decided by quality), species, location, popularity,....... Can a seed you plant, and work on for a few years qualify, my answer would be yes, as would collection, and nursery crawls, as long as it has some foundation work done to it distinguishing it from a bush you stick in the ground in your yard to make it look nice.

 

[Klytus]

Could be an article in preparing your pot bound nursery pine for Bonsai,as you say it takes some time and untangling immediately after purchase is not an option.

I check the roots for fungus and preferentially select with fungus even if the roots are more congested.

It's the triangle of man,tree,and fungus in harmony.

 

[Bill S]

Theres fungus among us.

 

[Vance Wood]

Klytus that and the juniper that has been growing in the same can for 8-9 years looks good on top but because root work wasn't done will take another 8 years to reduce the root mass to managable in a small pot.

Lots of room for error, which gives insight to the grower, some will give better results, so it's still buyer beware.

Vance, I'd agree it is materials worked on with the intent to be bonsai in the future, as others have suggested root work, chops, branch/trunk wiring for shape, etc. are part of the list of work that may or may not have been done with an eye towards the future tree. Price or origin are not important as far as I am concerned as to what the definition is. Is a pine seedling grown by a bonsai nursery the same as a landscape nursery grown pine, not in my book it isn't, there is time removed from the process of making it a "bonsai", how much you pay for it depends on a whole slew of things including, age, size, nursery reputation( usually decided by quality), species, location, popularity,....... Can a seed you plant, and work on for a few years qualify, my answer would be yes, as would collection, and nursery crawls, as long as it has some foundation work done to it distinguishing it from a bush you stick in the ground in your yard to make it look nice.

This has been my contention all along. However; in the past when obtaining material for bonsai was brought up the idea of getting things from nurseries was universally condemned, pilloried, and hooted at, claiming that the amount of time to make one of these trees into a bonsai would be better spent by buying a pre-bonsai. I think people are starting to get over this kind of thinking especially now that things have become so expensive. With descretionary funds more limited the idea of spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars for one of the aclaimed Yamidor or Pre-Bonsai have inflated beyond the reach of even NASA.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Pre-Bonsai to me is a plant or tree that has some feature that a Bonsai artist can capitalize on and run with.

For examples. A good taper from soil to where ever. A good start on interesting bark on the main trunk. A trunk shape that is usually described as "movement". A great selection of branches that are in scale to the trunk and envisioned height of the finished tree. An unusual bloom or leaf shape, size or color. A great root pattern on the surface, "nebari". A trunk feature that catches the eye, like a cavity. A trunk that terminates with branches that invite refinement and all are in proportion to the size.

If any one interested in Bonsai sees an available plant or tree that has any one of or multiples of any of these tick points it is a "pre-bonsai".

 

[Vance Wood]

Pre-Bonsai to me is a plant or tree that has some feature that a Bonsai artist can capitalize on and run with.

For examples. A good taper from soil to where ever. A good start on interesting bark on the main trunk. A trunk shape that is usually described as "movement". A great selection of branches that are in scale to the trunk and envisioned height of the finished tree. An unusual bloom or leaf shape, size or color. A great root pattern on the surface, "nebari". A trunk feature that catches the eye, like a cavity. A trunk that terminates with branches that invite refinement and all are in proportion to the size.

If any one interested in Bonsai sees an available plant or tree that has any one of or multiples of any of these tick points it is a "pre-bonsai".

I agree in principle, it's Pre-Bonsai to me. But; those who adhere to the concept of a Pre-Bonsai will generally refer to a tree obtained from a nursery or grower that sells material specifically for bonsai purposes. The difference seems to be in purpose opposed to serendipity. Serendipity being those trees one may find in a nursery that fit some of the criteria you have sited earlier. Oddly most Yamadori fall into this category. Anyone who thinks they are going to go out into the woods and find the next great bonsai the first or tenth time is fooling themselves. I have seen a host of collected trees that would have been better off left in the hills, but because the tree is old and collected, it is somehow thought this by itself will make it a credible bonsai of great value.

In the eyes of the experienced bonsai grower Yamadori and professional Pre-Bonsai are all they are reported to be but not without selection and an eye for the future. For the beginner the previous two choices can be an expensive mistake.

 

[HotAction]

I tried to make a simple list to help keep everything straight.

plants-any growing plant

nursery plant- intended to be planted in a landscape $$

bonsai stock- any tree that is purchased/grown with the intent of becoming a bonsai someday (usually requires major work-most or our trees fit this description)$$-$$$

pre-bonsai- A tree that has been styled and wired several/many times, requires refinement, no major pruning/cutting left (some of us have these, many do not)$$$$

bonsai- Able to be accepted into exhibit at a national/world wide level (most of us do not have any of these) $$$$$$$$

Dave

 

[Vance Wood]

I tried to make a simple list to help keep everything straight.

pre-bonsai- A tree that has been styled and wired several/many times, requires refinement, no major pruning/cutting left (some of us have these, many do not)$$$$

Your definition of a Pre-bonsai. That's the focus of this thread. It sounds to me that using your definition leaves little for the purchaser of a pre-bonsai to do. This if your definition and I'm fine with that, it just adds to the list under discussion.

 

[edprocoat]

I think we have come to the point of "What ever turns you on". I still prefer my own work because for me, the joy of bonsai is in the getting there. It has nothing to do with pride, or any other psychological moniker you can hang on it. I no more want a finished work, even a Kimura tree, than I want a pair of mis-matched shoes. I look at Kimura's work, or Walter Pall's for that matter, and desire to have that kind of eye and insight but not necessarily the actual work. I just do not have that desire. Other people do and I do not hold that against them or condemn them for doing so.

It seems we are like minded on this, I admire the obvious talents of those who are recognized for their trees and the work they do with them and I would love to be able to attain that level of finesse. I just do not see the attraction of owning their tree. I do not feel its anything else besides my desire to work on my own things, I change my own oil, repair anything I can, and even try repairing some things I can not, I do enjoy working with my hands and watching the progress I can accomplish in whatever task I engage in. Its not my style to want anothers work for me to alter, I would liken it to my painting circles on one of Picasso's cubism works, sure it may add my touch, but it would ruin the original artistry, and above all else it would not be mine. A true pre-bonsai tree would be somewhat different as its not a finished piece and what I would do to it would make it mine, still I usually start my own and the nearest I get to pre-bonsai is something nice I have "collected" in a garden center.
I also appreciate the fact that as we are all individuals we have our own tastes, therefore I would never attempt to label or denigrate those who buy finished trees if that is what makes them happy.

ed

 

[edprocoat]

Theres fungus among us.

Ahh, a poet!

Ed