Root Growth: Soil vs Bonsai Soil

Forsoothe! · Mar 7, 2019

Vance Wood said:
We acquire the basic elements of our chosen soil mixes in the bag and mix it together according to our chosen recipe.

Yes. We differ on some fine points, namely drainage and length of service. I also lean towards pots that are deeper than most. I still have to hose down everything once a summer day and most pots are dry when I do that at the end of the day. I only have one JWP that is in a position that doesn't get watered every day, and no other pines in pots. I will be growing some pines in pots eventually and will water them somewhat less often, but will use the mix.

You have complained about mixes that wear out/break down in size and compact (if compact is the right word). I repot every other or third year for hardy, and every year for most, or every other year for some, tropicals. Some tropicals like BRT and bougainvilleas might be repotted twice in some years. Because of this repotting expectation/use, my mix does get used-up quicker than your mix. "Used up" meaning exchanged for new root mass in my case. It is safe to say (I think) that my deciduous and tropical trees should and do normally grow faster than your pines should normally grow. IMHO Pines would grow faster in my mix, too. I suppose, you might not find that true, or a positive, or neither.

How say you?

Bonsai Nut · Mar 7, 2019

Forsoothe! said:
I'm too used to new ideas being met with resistance to actually discussing anything.

So sorry to have missed a fun soil argument thread!

@Forsoothe! Don't worry if you feel the community is picking on you... it isn't really you

It's the general theme of "it works for me, so it must work for everyone".

Now I don't want to get on the wrong side of many years of people trying different soil mixes, and coming up with an "optimal" recommended mix for trees in containers that is mostly inorganic, porous, of a certain grain size, etc. I truly believe that this is the best solution in most cases... for most trees in containers. Science tells us that soil provides (1) access to oxygen (2) access to water (3) access to nutrients (4) physical anchoring. Deny any of the four, and you are going to have a dead tree. But how you provide the four... is open to interpretation

I like to provide recommendations for what I think will work in most cases. If you have had good experience with potting soil in containers, I'm not going to suggest you're wrong. Rather, I would suggest you're an exception to the rule. Potting soil in containers isn't a "new idea" as you suggest... rather it is an old idea that hasn't worked for most people, in most cases. Again, do not think I'm attacking you because I'm not. Rather, I could see how, if all I had to work with was potting soil, I could make bonsai work for me. I could. But personally, I would find it much easier to work with something else.

So if you are open to experimentation, I would challenge you to take 20 "X" trees (perhaps shimpaku cuttings from eBay, or similar) and pot up 10 in your best soil mix, and pot up 10 in an established bonsai mix, in the same containers, and see what you see.

Vance Wood · Mar 7, 2019

Forsoothe! said:
Yes. We differ on some fine points, namely drainage and length of service. I also lean towards pots that are deeper than most.

Do you use deeper pots because of aesthetics or because you have used the shallow ones and did not like the results? Shallow pots using what I perceive your mix to be and its behavior would probably end in disaster because shallow pots do not drain as well as deeper. As your mix breaks down the drainage is going to be adversely effected. This has something to do with the water column. I also believe that it is almost impossible to judge my mix used with mostly Pines, Junipers and other Conifers as I do, which cannot tolerate repotting as often as deciduous material and Tropicals which can be repotted sometimes several times a year.

I still have to hose down everything once a summer day and most pots are dry when I do that at the end of the day. I only have one JWP that is in a position that doesn't get watered every day, and no other pines in pots. I will be growing some pines in pots eventually and will water them somewhat less often, but will use the mix.

You have complained about mixes that wear out/break down in size and compact (if compact is the right word). I repot every other or third year for hardy, and every year for most, or every other year for some, tropicals. Some tropicals like BRT and bougainvilleas might be repotted twice in some years. Because of this repotting expectation/use, my mix does get used-up quicker than your mix. "Used up" meaning exchanged for new root mass in my case. It is safe to say (I think) that my deciduous and tropical trees should and do normally grow faster than your pines should normally grow. IMHO Pines would grow faster in my mix, too. I suppose, you might not find that true, or a positive, or neither.

How say you?

I know that you do not consider the structure of a soil mix as being critical because it seems three years is about as long as you keep a tree in a single potting environment. Most of my Pines and Junipers go at least five years and some of the older ones have gone ten years. I know of a certain that Mugos do not grow well in a soil mix that holds too much water. Mugos like a lot of water but they do not like to be kept wet. This is true of a lot of conifers. Many people, not understanding this odd little trait, tend to offset this problem by keeping them too dry and run the risk of killing them because they died due to drought. I know of several incidents where this has happened. On the other hand some people try and grow Pines and for one reason or another usually accounting to soil difficulties kill them because of too much water. If you want to continue with the material you currently grow your mix will work fine mostly because it does no get the chance to wear out before the root growth forces you to repot. That does not mean my trees do not produce abundant roots, they do. Also rapid and growth and Pines/Bonsai are not mutually inclusive except in early developmental stages.

Ali Raza · Mar 7, 2019

Forsoothe! said:
I speculate that these are two different species?

Mine was pine and root growth look similar to the potted bonsai.

Forsoothe! · Mar 7, 2019

Thanks for not attacking me BonsaiNut, I get frightened easily and sometimes I pee my pants, too. My Mommy is tired of changing my bedding.

If you had read my formulation explanation you would have found that it's not just potting soil, it's all the good stuff in the mix that I think contributes to more and better growth for me. I think it would help others, too. And I don't think that I'm the first to discover dirt. I imagine that others have had an interest in pursuing souped-up systems, but it takes a thick skin to introduce new elements to the True Believers. I have a thick head, so I think that's just as good. I have had a hundred bonsai in various sizes and stages of existence for 20 years, so I don't find it necessary to run your suggested experiment. If you do it, by all means give me all the credit because... well just give me all the credit. Or not.

You prefer a mix that is almost all inorganic, that's a lot of stuff that is useless to the plant except for speedy drainage. I don't think speedy drainage is necessary. I don't want anything in the pot that isn't used by the plant to feed upon. Also, I'm a proponent of microbes and want to provide as rich of an environment as possible for them so as to encourage as large of a population as possible. We agree to differ. That's that.

Actually, I think of my mix as a starter formula for others from the standpoint of having some interesting and beneficial amendments that others should consider adding to their mixes. The two minor element sources would add minors to any mix. The Bone Char is a much better source for the same elements supplied by peat-moss, but doesn't dry out like peat does. Peat is really hard to re-wet if it dries out, unlike Bone Char which also holds less water to begin with. Just because y'all don't like my organic base doesn't mean that all my components are useless to your mix.

The history of my introduction to Bone Char (actually, dust from charcoal operations, then later Bone Char) is interesting in itself. Interesting to real soil scientists, too. We all understand that bonsai are never really finished, and our education of how to grow them better and better should never be finished either. I invite y'all over to the good guys' camp. Come in from the darkness... Take that chip off your shoulder and put it in the soil!

Forsoothe! · Mar 7, 2019

Vance, I use a deeper pot to hold more roots and water. In a more dense mix, like mine with a lot of organics, the water doesn't settle to the bottom. It stays equally moist throughout the profile. I do not have a drainage problem.

Ali Raza said:
Mine was pine and root growth look similar to the potted bonsai.

I didn't see your pictures. ?

Adair M · Mar 7, 2019

Forsoothe!, you feel that the tree “feeds” itself from the soil. The practioners who use inorganic souls mixes do not. The use fertilizers to provide the nutrients the tree needs.

With “dirt”, there is little control over the fertilizer. With an inorganic soil mix, it’s possible to control how much fertilizer is available.

So, for trees you want to grow, adding fertilizer will help them grow. If, on the other hand, you have a highly refined tree that’s in more of a maintence mode rather than in development, you might prefer to provide less fertilizer to prevent overly vigorous growth.

The point is, it’s controllable if you use inorganic soil. Not so with organic soil.

Anthony · Mar 8, 2019

Question - take an inorganic soil and add fermented oil seed meal cake
as it decays and becomes compost, the particles filter down
and the inorganic soil now has an organic component.

So purely inorganic soil would be hydroponics and you add any type of man-made fertiliser.
________________________________________-
The microbes are supposed to use N.P.K ..............
Which the roots make use of.

So what is the difference between - a purely inorganic soil and oil seed meal
with fish emulsion

And an inorganic with a small % of compost using a weak man made fertiliser.

Also when you use teabags does one alter the above to just supplying
N.P.K ...... ?

When talking about maintenance as written by Sifu [ Adair ]
Good Day
Anthony

Vance Wood · Mar 8, 2019

Anthony said:
Question - take an inorganic soil and add fermented oil seed meal cake
as it decays and becomes compost, the particles filter down
and the inorganic soil now has an organic component.

So purely inorganic soil would be hydroponics and you add any type of man-made fertiliser.
________________________________________-
The microbes are supposed to use N.P.K ..............
Which the roots make use of.

So what is the difference between - a purely inorganic soil and oil seed meal
with fish emulsion

And an inorganic with a small % of compost using a weak man made fertiliser.

Also when you use teabags does one alter the above to just supplying
N.P.K ...... ?

When talking about maintenance as written by Sifu [ Adair ]
Good Day
Anthony

We do live in a world of contradictions, inconsistencies, and sometimes hypocrisy, clinging onto a position out of pride not wishing to give in to another contrary point of view even if convinced we were wrong, we will refuse to admit it.

Forsoothe! · Mar 8, 2019

Adair M said:
Forsoothe!, you feel that the tree “feeds” itself from the soil. The practioners who use inorganic souls mixes do not. The use fertilizers to provide the nutrients the tree needs.

With “dirt”, there is little control over the fertilizer. With an inorganic soil mix, it’s possible to control how much fertilizer is available.

So, for trees you want to grow, adding fertilizer will help them grow. If, on the other hand, you have a highly refined tree that’s in more of a maintence mode rather than in development, you might prefer to provide less fertilizer to prevent overly vigorous growth.

The point is, it’s controllable if you use inorganic soil. Not so with organic soil.

All of which is stated in so many words in my previously attached files. Also mentioned are microbes which process native and added micro-elements for use by the plants (via microbes). You have very few microbes (comparatively). I consider my mix to be more complete than yours. We agree to disagree.

Forsoothe! · Mar 8, 2019

Anthony said:
Question - take an inorganic soil and add fermented oil seed meal cake
as it decays and becomes compost, the particles filter down
and the inorganic soil now has an organic component.

So purely inorganic soil would be hydroponics and you add any type of man-made fertiliser.
________________________________________-
The microbes are supposed to use N.P.K ..............
Which the roots make use of.

So what is the difference between - a purely inorganic soil and oil seed meal
with fish emulsion

And an inorganic with a small % of compost using a weak man made fertiliser.

Also when you use teabags does one alter the above to just supplying
N.P.K ...... ?

When talking about maintenance as written by Sifu [ Adair ]
Good Day
Anthony

The difference is the volume of feedstock available to the plant at any one time. And, don't forget the Bone Char.

rockm · Mar 8, 2019

Forsoothe! said:
Thanks for not attacking me BonsaiNut, I get frightened easily and sometimes I pee my pants, too. My Mommy is tired of changing my bedding.

If you had read my formulation explanation you would have found that it's not just potting soil, it's all the good stuff in the mix that I think contributes to more and better growth for me. I think it would help others, too. And I don't think that I'm the first to discover dirt. I imagine that others have had an interest in pursuing souped-up systems, but it takes a thick skin to introduce new elements to the True Believers. I have a thick head, so I think that's just as good. I have had a hundred bonsai in various sizes and stages of existence for 20 years, so I don't find it necessary to run your suggested experiment. If you do it, by all means give me all the credit because... well just give me all the credit. Or not.

You prefer a mix that is almost all inorganic, that's a lot of stuff that is useless to the plant except for speedy drainage. I don't think speedy drainage is necessary. I don't want anything in the pot that isn't used by the plant to feed upon. Also, I'm a proponent of microbes and want to provide as rich of an environment as possible for them so as to encourage as large of a population as possible. We agree to differ. That's that.

Actually, I think of my mix as a starter formula for others from the standpoint of having some interesting and beneficial amendments that others should consider adding to their mixes. The two minor element sources would add minors to any mix. The Bone Char is a much better source for the same elements supplied by peat-moss, but doesn't dry out like peat does. Peat is really hard to re-wet if it dries out, unlike Bone Char which also holds less water to begin with. Just because y'all don't like my organic base doesn't mean that all my components are useless to your mix.

The history of my introduction to Bone Char (actually, dust from charcoal operations, then later Bone Char) is interesting in itself. Interesting to real soil scientists, too. We all understand that bonsai are never really finished, and our education of how to grow them better and better should never be finished either. I invite y'all over to the good guys' camp. Come in from the darkness... Take that chip off your shoulder and put it in the soil!

Funny that you say education should never be finished--here's the deal, your soil mix is not "new." It is old and mostly outdated. Bonsai has moved on for the better with "souped-up" soil mixes since the 1980's. I used to use soil mixes similar to yours waay back when (circa 1993)-heavy on composted pine bark, peat moss etc. that was the practice back then. Those mixes are not all that easy to deal with. Mixes based on larger particles, including larger organic particles are vastly better. Those larger particles hardly inhibit microbial or mycorrhizae development. I have oaks now that have vast colonies of root myc in my current chunky soil--same for most of my other deciduous species. Those trees did not develop the same colonies when I was using heavy denser soils.

Plants do not "feed upon" anything. They make their own "food" through photosynthesis--they use NPK to facilitate that process. They don't care where they get that NPK. NPK is NPK and can come from organic components or fertilizers or through "chemical" ferts in solution. The latter is how those nutrients are supplied with freer draining soils.

There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" here for crying out loud.

And before I get hounded for making "blanket statements" and being "godlike" --all this, obviously is my opinion gathered from doing bonsai for the last 25 years...

Bonsai Nut · Mar 8, 2019

rockm said:
Plants do not "feed upon" anything. They make their own "food" through photosynthesis--they use NPK to facilitate that process. They don't care where they get that NPK. NPK is NPK and can come from organic components or fertilizers or through "chemical" ferts in solution.

When I posted the four objectives that soils fulfill... the biggest issue (in my opinion) with soil mixes in a container is they have a tendency to compact and choke out oxygen. As the soil compacts, it also has a tendency to hold on to too much water... so that the surface of the soil is dry while the soil lower in the pot is still wet. Root rot is much more common in containers with soil for this reason.

Your post reminds me of hydroponics as an example, where in some cases the roots aren't even anchored in aggregate. It's all about oxygen, water, and nutrients. The plant can be wired or clamped so it doesn't fall over

Forsoothe! · Mar 8, 2019

Bonsai Nut said:
When I posted the four objectives that soils fulfill... the biggest issue (in my opinion) with soil mixes in a container is they have a tendency to compact and choke out oxygen. As the soil compacts, it also has a tendency to hold on to too much water... so that the surface of the soil is dry while the soil lower in the pot is still wet. Root rot is much more common in containers with soil for this reason.

Your post reminds me of hydroponics as an example, where in some cases the roots aren't even anchored in aggregate. It's all about oxygen, water, and nutrients. The plant can be wired or clamped so it doesn't fall over

If any of that is true, how do you explain commercial growers raising stock in pots of essentially wood chips for years?

rockm · Mar 8, 2019

Forsoothe! said:
If any of that is true, how do you explain commercial growers raising stock in pots of essentially wood chips for years?

Because commercial growers are selling in volume. They aren't necessarily after the BEST soil, they're after soil that is easy to handle, cheap and readily available in bulk. That doesn't make what they're using terrific for actually GROWING trees in for years developing them into bonsai. Cheap, mass-produced soil for nursery trees is used to keep the roots in a sellable condition before the tree is transplanted into the ground.

Bonsai Nut · Mar 8, 2019

Forsoothe! said:
If any of that is true, how do you explain commercial growers raising stock in pots of essentially wood chips for years?

Of course it's true, LOL. I hope we aren't going to get into a debate on established science. What soil DOES is well-known. The only thing we are discussing is the BEST WAY to accomplish it.

I don't consider wood chips to be the same thing as potting soil. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying - I thought we were talking about potting soils. I think using chunky organic matter in a mix works just fine - because it allows lots of oxygen into the mix and doesn't pool water. Wood chips will also take a long time to break down... so they can be used for a while before they start to compact. I use sifted/graded pine bark in some of my mixes, as well as rough-cut peat. In my case it also helps acidify the soil to counteract our extremely alkaline water (pH 8.0 out of the tap). Pine park has a pH in the 4.0 - 5.0 range, peat is around 4.5.

Forsoothe! · Mar 8, 2019

Why do I bother posting a 5 page explanation of the origin and thinking behind a formula, and five additional supporting documents? Nobody reads them. You flop back and forth between talking about the mix being either just mineral soil and compacting like just mineral soil, or too organic and thus too wet. It is a combination of equal parts of wood chips and mineral soil. It does not compact, the water stays in suspension and does not collect at the bottom. It is rich in all elements, especially available carbon for continuous growth that can be spiked anytime you want by adding N. You add NPK to yours, I just add N, or NPK to mine. Whatever else is true, my plants live well and look good.

Either growing in all wood chips like growers do works, or not. If it works, then your "too wet" thinking is all wet.

And, just for rockm: Nobody would confuse your uppity attitudes with God-like. God-like implies attributes that are decidedly, un-rockm-like. Being a know-it-all is not God-like.

rockm · Mar 8, 2019

Forsoothe! said:
Why do I bother posting a 5 page explanation of the origin and thinking behind a formula, and five additional supporting documents? Nobody reads them. You flop back and forth between talking about the mix being either just mineral soil and compacting like just mineral soil, or too organic and thus too wet. It is a combination of equal parts of wood chips and mineral soil. It does not compact, the water stays in suspension and does not collect at the bottom. It is rich in all elements, especially available carbon for continuous growth that can be spiked anytime you want by adding N. You add NPK to yours, I just add N, or NPK to mine. Whatever else is true, my plants live well and look good.

And, just for rockm: Nobody would confuse your uppity attitudes with God-like. God-like implies attributes that are decidedly, un-rockm-like. Being a know-it-all is not God-like.

thanks for that!

Adair M · Mar 8, 2019

Forsoothe! said:
All of which is stated in so many words in my previously attached files. Also mentioned are microbes which process native and added micro-elements for use by the plants (via microbes). You have very few microbes (comparatively). I consider my mix to be more complete than yours. We agree to disagree.

If my soil is so poor, then why are my trees not dead?

coh · Mar 8, 2019

Forsoothe! said:
It does not compact, the water stays in suspension and does not collect at the bottom.

This (underlined part) is interesting to me. How do you know water isn't collecting at the bottom? I was under the impression that no matter what type of soil is used
in a shallow bonsai pot, there will be some perched water at the bottom. Maybe it's less when finer soils are used? Have you actually measured it somehow, or perhaps
planted in a clear plastic container so you can see if there is water?

I'll make one observation about nursery plants/soil. Whenever I've worked with nursery stock, especially something that has been containerized for a while, I'm always
impressed by the root systems I find. The containers are usually filled with dense/healthy roots throughout. I know that nursery containers are much deeper than bonsai pots so there
is a big difference right there, but it does give me confidence that if I ever decided to move away from akadama (or it became unavailable), a bark-based soil (bark in place
of akadama) would probably work just fine. At this point though, I don't see the benefit (other than reducing cost). As Adair has noted, the ability to really control nutrient
availability can be a big benefit (think JBP, feed heavily to encourage first flush, then cut off to control second flush) of inorganic "soils".

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