11th Floor JBPs

[0soyoung]

Here's the second one I'd like to let grow into a bigger tree. It'll be repotted to the bigger pot next spring. It's got two SBs. I'm taking it to our club to get some help which front to follow and then I'll be able to put some wire on and remove some branches. What would you suggest?

Since I like curvy forms, A initially grabs my eye but I think the artistic truth is that it isn't a good front because the trunk line is 'predictable' - not much different from a corkscrew. I think something unexpected, in this sense, will make a lot more interesting trunk line. So I wind up choosing this one

but you'll have to figure out how the apex will come back toward the viewer. The opposite view (180 from this) woudn't have this problem as the trunk would be coming toward the viewer, but the base likely won't be as interesting from that side.

Regardless, you undoubtedly will continuing having a lot of fun with these two nice trees!
I'm envious.

 

[petegreg]

Thank you Oso. The front still hasn't been selected. I see your point and can't agree more. On a branch selection topic, I could keep and incorporate the first left branch...As pictured in your post. In other case it will be only SB.

 

[0soyoung]

I could keep and incorporate the first left branch...As pictured in your post.

Yes, I think so.

 

[petegreg]

I'm dreaming... want to have this one Large. No way for ground growing, colander...ehm, maybe with some tray to keep the leaking water in. If I wanted to pot it for 4-5 years, could the pot be twice of the present size? The present pot'll be filled with roots nicely, but not root bound next spring.

 

[Potawatomi13]

In such tiny pot surprised is not root bound already. If wanting bigger trunk roots must feel they are free to run. Twice as big pot not near big enough. Sacrifice branch needs to grow at least 4-5 feet but better to 7-8 feet.

 

[Adair M]

Since I like curvy forms, A initially grabs my eye but I think the artistic truth is that it isn't a good front because the trunk line is 'predictable' - not much different from a corkscrew. I think something unexpected, in this sense, will make a lot more interesting trunk line. So I wind up choosing this one

but you'll have to figure out how the apex will come back toward the viewer. The opposite view (180 from this) woudn't have this problem as the trunk would be coming toward the viewer, but the base likely won't be as interesting from that side.

Regardless, you undoubtedly will continuing having a lot of fun with these two nice trees!
I'm envious.

Careful here... notice that your internodes are getting spaced out farther and farther apart. That is, the distance between branches is getting longer the taller the tree gets. This is exactly opposite of what we want. Internodes (distances between branches) should get shorter closer to the apex.

 

[petegreg]

In such tiny pot surprise not root bound already. If wanting bigger trunk roots must feel they are free to run. Twice as big pot not near big enough. Sacrifice branch needs to grow at least 4-5 feet but better to 7-8 feet.

Thank you. I took a picture to show the difference between those two pots. If I wanted to do it with any other pine species I would feel uncomfortable with it. Right, I am still not familiar with root growth rate of JBP.

Careful here... notice that your internodes are getting spaced out farther and farther apart. That is, the distance between branches is getting longer the taller the tree gets. This is exactly opposite of what we want. Internodes (distances between branches) should get shorter closer to the apex.

Thank you for response. My plan is to
start building the tree out of the whorl pointed by the red arrow. I will start shoot pruning of the entire tree below that point to keep the internodes AshortAP. There is still enough needles on the trunk and I hope I can get some back budds. If no I will have to follow a new plan.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

i would go or lower (height of first branch) or would use sacrifice branches to get the trunk thicker. There are some straight lines in there so not sure if going for more literati style (red arrow), is a good option. Difficult on photo. Some buds popped at the same height as the lowest branch, i would consider training those wile keeping the sacrifice for an extra year.

 

[petegreg]

i would go or lower (height of first branch) or would use sacrifice branches to get the trunk thicker. There are some straight lines in there so not sure if going for more literati style (red arrow), is a good option. Difficult on photo. Some buds popped at the same height as the lowest branch, i would consider training those wile keeping the sacrifice for an extra year.

Thank you for looking, I appreciate it.

Actually there are two sacrifice branches, the top and the extention of the first branch. Unfortunately the new growth you mentioned grows right above that first branch and I guess in case of 1st branch removal I might lose those tiny branches. I will train them and will see.
And of course everything below the red arrow will be kept and trained except few branches in whorls. That's why I' m looking for the best front.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Just reread the thread. For this tree i still would use the lower buds. One for a next trunkline, the other for a first branch. The straight section above the first big branch keeps poking me. Let the sacrifice grow. Put it in a bigger pot. The pot on the photo is bigger, will be filled in a year normally. You can upgrade your potsize every 2 years without messing with the roots. Problem is that without airpruning you might get some bigger roots directly from the base. You don't want that, make a good plan.

 

[petegreg]

Just reread the thread. For this tree i still would use the lower buds. One for a next trunkline, the other for a first branch. The straight section above the first big branch keeps poking me. Let the sacrifice grow. Put it in a bigger pot. The pot on the photo is bigger, will be filled in a year normally. You can upgrade your potsize every 2 years without messing with the roots. Problem is that without airpruning you might get some bigger roots directly from the base. You don't want that, make a good plan.

Hi Dirk, thank you for your time indeed. Some changes - I found some one year old branch BELOW the first left branch so I cut the 1st branch leaving stub. It will go to that pot in spring, the second HBR session will be done year after year. That straight part...Looks straight and in the real life it doesn't bother me. After few years of strong growth I hope all the trunk will thicken and you know, what's now curved will look straighter...I still hope I'll get some new buds from the trunk. Time will tell me.

But actually I'm walking around the smaller one with a Q: cut or not to cut the sacrifice branch now?

But I'm very thankful you confirmed that the pot for the large one is not too big. I'll document 2nd HBR. And I'm really curious how the roots will look like...

Now the primary task is winter survival. I've received some valuable advices in other thread. They are still outside, in the shade. When the temps go below -4℃, I 'll move them in the cold room where my P. pinea's spent 11 winters. I might shuffle them as well. I'll be back in spring.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

For the smaller one i suppose you mean the one in post 37? Cutting the sacrifice means you will stop the thickening of the trunk. When you are happy with the trunk, cut it. Otherwise i would wait. The sacrifice has been cut previously. The new leader has grown well but is not as thick as the original leader. As a consequence there will have been no significant thickening this year. You must let it grow until it is as big as the lower portion. Keep in mind that you will have a chop-mark, best at the backside for some time. Your new leader is ready to take over when you are happy with the trunksize. Train this one so you don't have big internodes or promote backbudding. Your lower branches are more than strong enough (reason is the trunkchop), when you want to keep them in your final design you might consider cutting them back at the best time, so they are not to big when you do your final design. For pines a pot can be to big. When you have a strong growing young pine and a good medium and a not to flat pot (higher water table), you have a big margin of error. And you should adjust your watering.

 

[petegreg]

For the smaller one i suppose you mean the one in post 37? Cutting the sacrifice means you will stop the thickening of the trunk. When you are happy with the trunk, cut it. Otherwise i would wait. The sacrifice has been cut previously. The new leader has grown well but is not as thick as the original leader. As a consequence there will have been no significant thickening this year. You must let it grow until it is as big as the lower portion. Keep in mind that you will have a chop-mark, best at the backside for some time. Your new leader is ready to take over when you are happy with the trunksize. Train this one so you don't have big internodes or promote backbudding. Your lower branches are more than strong enough (reason is the trunkchop), when you want to keep them in your final design you might consider cutting them back at the best time, so they are not to big when you do your final design. For pines a pot can be to big. When you have a strong growing young pine and a good medium and a not to flat pot (higher water table), you have a big margin of error. And you should adjust your watering.

Thanks for this. So I will follow my original plan, let the SB run for one more season with new leader. It might require to do the second HBR with this one too to get it to slightly bigger growing pot. It grew well this season so I hope HBR repot year after year is safe. The intention allows me to do a final cut at the rear.

You are right, the lowest branches are quite thick, I shortened them to the safe secondary branches some month ago and will do it again and again.

Looking at weather forecasts they will go to the cold room on Friday...

 

[Anthony]

Peter,

the Bonsai Today articles show J.B.pines in say 12 x 6 inch deep, simple earthenware clay pots growing to
3 inch trunks in 5 years.

The author of one article also tried a second technique, that spent less time on trunk thickness and more
on branched, slimmer trees.
His idea was that after 33 years, he still didn't have the proportion of branch to trunk as he wanted it.

However the articles say fertilise heavily, but more as the oil seed meal stuff.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[petegreg]

Peter,

the Bonsai Today articles show J.B.pines in say 12 x 6 inch deep, simple earthenware clay pots growing to
3 inch trunks in 5 years.

The author of one article also tried a second technique, that spent less time on trunk thickness and more
on branched, slimmer trees.
His idea was that after 33 years, he still didn't have the proportion of branch to trunk as he wanted it.

However the articles say fertilise heavily, but more as the oil seed meal stuff.
Good Day
Anthony

Thanks Anthony.
I've got all those articles bookmarked and it's a time to re-read them again...and get all dirty details.

 

[Anthony]

Most excellent Peter!!
Anthony

 

[petegreg]

So, the time's come, temperatures are going below -5 ℃ and these two pines were stored in my cold room today with subtropicals and my Italian Stone Pines that enjoy winters there. The only issue is, is it better to keep them in a cold room for all the winter or shuffle them out and in...depending on the weather forecast. The first possibility says they will be kept between 2-10℃, the second enables me to keep the temps lower, but risking more freeze thaw cycles.

 

[petegreg]

Thank all who advised -4℃ as a lowest temp we got through the winter fine. They spent two days in december and three weeks in january in a cold room, rest of winter outside.
Here's the small one, I think it'll be ready for it's first decandling this year.



The bigger one was repotted, the second HBR done and a little bit slower, will be left growing free, maybe selective decandling this season. Will add pictures later.

 

[Cypress187]

Strapping them to the railing is not a bad idea!

 

[petegreg]

Strapping them to the railing is not a bad idea!

Not at all. It's absolutely must. Many good people here are watching what the neighbors do...