garywood
Chumono
Let's try to narrow the variables?
Another mugo attempt
- Thread starter jedge76
- Start date
Let's try to narrow the variables?
jkd2572
Masterpiece
Sorry I just wanted to first thanks to Vance. 2nd thank him of his observations. Give me a couple of years and I will let you know if they can thrive in triple diget temps in a pot.
bonsairxmd
Shohin
Same here. I just acquired two to try.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
I agree, I'll be waiting for the posts in the future about these plants.
Please continue to experiment, thats how things are learned.
Please continue to experiment, thats how things are learned.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
How do you guys think I learned? I didn't read it in a book and I didn't learn it from anyone else. I trudged along and figured it out. At some point I started having success enough with Spring repotting that I was asked to do demonstrations. It was that cycle that taught me about Summer repotting. For the sake of demonstration I would do everything to the trees I worked on and they all survived with stunning vigor after I brutalized them in the middle of summer. I did this to my own trees.
As to the issue of tripel digits in pots: We have triple digits here in Michigan and my Mugos do fine with those temperatures you just have to remember to water them two or three times a day under those conditions. Putting them on the ground to keep the pots cool, if the heat spell is prolonged, might ease your mind but it is not necessary. Remember Mugos are not JBP. JBP's are kept on the dry side MUGOS LIKE AND NEED A LOT OF WATER. Mugos need to breath and by that I mean they need to have a good circulation between air and water through the soil mix. The soil mix needs to drain well. This means you need to water the tree more often. Watering drives out the air, drainage draws in the air this is a breathing soil.
In JBP culture, water and fertilizer are carefully monitered and for the most part withheld except when absolutly necessary as a method for controling needle length. Needle length in Mugos is controled by proper candle removal, the stimulation of many buds and the redistribution of resources meant for a few but forced on the many. I think what happens a lot of times is that people start to work with a Mugo and discover that they are having some success, they then resort to JBP culture. In hope of keeping the needles small they start to keep the tree dry. In doing so they put the tree on a tight rope of care where one little mistake can kill the tree and---- that mistake is keeping the tree too dry. This actually happened to a good friend of mine. He had a beautiful little Shohin Mugo that met its demise that way when put in the care of someone who missed watering it a couple of times.
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
This post holds with it a suggestion that the Summer repot is really just a fortunate risk that it succeeds is due mostly to our lower temperatures. I have repotted in the summer when the temperature has ranged into the triple digits and hovered for weeks around the mid to upper 90's. I have written this in RED AND BIG LETTERS to emphasize for---maybe the 100th time that I have done these trees in really hot weather.
This summer has been really cool. We had one day several weeks ago where we hit 96* but it has been mostly in the upper 80's most of the summer for highs. We have had it down into the 40* at night and this is not normal. To use this summer, in the preceeding chart as reflecting average temperatures, does not demonstrate the normal range of temperature. In fact they are predicting another Polar Vortex for this winter. Boy I can't wait.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
A lot of times Al, availability depends upon demand in a business that is considered a speciality business. The Mugo Pine in America has been for year vilified for a host of reasons. Now there are many people that shun the Mugo, not because they killed one once, but because they know someone who killed one once, or they heard stories from someone who killed one once.
As to the Bristlecone Pine I would love to experiment with one of them, but they are not cheap or readily available around here, Manzanita must be collected, and Hinoki Cypress are just not that popular because of the way they grow and the amount of care that is different from the more common species.
But I find the argument that bonsai nurseries don't carry the tree is a totally empty argument based on the experience of the owners of the bonsai nursery. Again; they will carry what they can sell, and that is based on demand.
As to the three trees you picked out I believe that there are problems with them because of the way they are grown. This means that the trees failed because someone tried to cultivate them based on standard procedures with other and similar trees; does that not make sense?
If it is in fact those procedures that are the reason for their failures, then doing the same thing again with the same species of tree and expecting a different result is insanity. So what are you left with? Experiment with the trees or claim that they cannot be grown as bonsai and sadly------make life miserable for those who are trying different things to grow these trees. Then when they start suceeding these same people are quick to point out that this and that are the reasons for the success not that the gospel of growing bonsai everyone else has been brought up with is wrong.
I don't blame anyone for believing otherwise about my work with the Mugo Pine but you have to at least accept that the reason I succeed and the reason you have failed (if you have) is because I grow them differently than you have been taught and even may have taught. Remember there was a time in history that main stream science believed the world was flat and the Sun revolved about the Earth.
Vance, there you go again, spreading misinformation about JBP.
JBP like well draining soil, too. I fertilize my JBP heavily in the spring and fall. I water two or three times a day. I do withhold fertilizer for the 4 to 6 weeks between the time I decandle and the time the new summer needles appear. Then, back to fertilizing.
I know you're an "old dog". Shame on you for rejecting the "new tricks".
JBP like well draining soil, too. I fertilize my JBP heavily in the spring and fall. I water two or three times a day. I do withhold fertilizer for the 4 to 6 weeks between the time I decandle and the time the new summer needles appear. Then, back to fertilizing.
I know you're an "old dog". Shame on you for rejecting the "new tricks".
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Agreed on nearly all counts. My JBP are in river gravel, lava, and akadama, 1:1:1, and I keep them well-hydrated, watering 1-2 times daily and misting foliage several times daily too. I do not withhold fertilizer after candle cutting, and feed with cakes and fish emulsion every 3-5 days.
I am looking for a mugo and test the advice here. I really like the pumila variety and would like to find one.
Vance, I didn't know you are growing JBP...any pix?
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I don't grow many JBP mostly because I don't particularly like them, they are not commonly available as nursery trees because they do not like the severity of our winters. I currently have five that I have grown from seed but nothing spectacular. What you are writing about JBPs does not totally square with what those that grow them around here are saying and many things I have read over the years especially about withholding water and ferts. I have not paid much attention to a lot of this stuff over the last couple of years mostly because, as I said, I don't particularly like the tree. I don't grow Ficus or Ponderosa Pine for the same reason. All of my JBP's are from seed that I grew my self, or from liners I purchased years ago.
Actually the Pumila variety is the most common. I just picked up 50 that I am going to be working on for resale at shows and demonstrations.
I am very much looking for you to work on a Mugo. Not that I want you to prove a point but I think you could do some wonderful things with the tree once you realized that the tree is not an impossiblility.
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bonsairxmd
Shohin
Vance- What are all the varities of mugo that you've worked with and which do you prefer personally?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I've worked with Pumilo, Tyrolean (my favorite), Mugus, Montana Pine, and Mops. I like them all except the Mops until I discovered how to live with the cultivar. Most of them resond pretty much like the rest of them. The Tyrolean tend to have prettiest growth with reddish under growth and short needles. Some people say that the Pumilo has the best bark but I have found that the
Tyriolean does. Mugus is very much like Pumilo almost impossible to tell the difference between.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I only quoted what I have been told from all of the people I have been around for years that grow them. However; you have to admit that the modern instructions for JBP tend to read like Stereo instructions. It is in my mind no wonder those who have once memorized this process and practiced it for a while are reluctant to learn another system with such a similar looking Pine. Before anyone ventures into Mugo Pines you first have to acknowledge a desire to do so. I don't really care if any of you seriously embrace the Mugo Pine but at least give those of us that do a break.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Then perhaps we could work something out...let's see one of those 50 pumillo and shoot me a price. If they're little, maybe you'd like to trade one for a 1 gallon Itoigawa to play with.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Would you really be interested in a Mugo Pine that is probably not more than five years old?
Here are some videos from May this year. You can see the Mugo starting at 2:17 into the Video. Sorry the quality of the Video is not real good.
[video=youtube;ccFdv-W9SjI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ccFdv-W9SjI[/video]
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Just got back from the doctor. Had to get some muscle relaxers to compensate for the pain in my arm being twisted so hard.
I told him "it hurts when I do this"...he said "then don't do that"....
I told him "it hurts when I do this"...he said "then don't do that"....
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You're a funny dude Al. I hope you are alright. Pain in the arms and legs seem to be haunting me more and more the older I get. I do the best I can to stay away from medications, it seem for every one pill they give you they have to give you three more to counteract the side effects. So conceivably you could wind up with three pills to do one thing.
I was recently diagnosed with type one diabetes and given the prescription Metforman to lower blood sugar. Believe it or not this stuff turned me into an ass-hole. I know, I know many of you are saying; " but Vance you were already an ass-hole." I had become an ass-hole squared. I know many of you are saying; " but Vance you were already square." Just goes to show you; you can't win. I talked the doctor into allowing me the attempt to control the problem with diet. So now I have to prick my finger every day. Boy don't get dyslexia and perform that one backwards.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
I would not do a nursery crawl looking for one to grow out, but one of my favorite trees that "got away" was sold to me as a JRP, but it arrived labeled as pumillo.
Having owned quite a few JRP since, and seeing several pumillo, I suspect this was accurately labeled as pumillo. It came from Sebastopol CA in '05, so maybe Al has some insight. It was a beautiful tree, just as it sat...really nice spreading plate-like base, pebbly bark, soft plump foliage, and a good scent. Neither it nor it's replacement lived more than 2 months after they arrived. I suspect they weren't handled too carefully in preparation for shipping. I didn't have them long enough to kill them.
This is the only photo I can find of it at the moment. It would be cool to own another. Yours are small, and for the sake of bonsai, I'll take a look at some nurseries and see if I can find one here. If not, let's talk and I'll be happy to experiment with a mugo in 'Bama.
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I would be honored to have you give it a serious attempt.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Well...let me see what I can come up with over the next couple weeks, and I'll holler if I can't find one.
