Artisans Cup of Portland

[Dan W.]

It costs money to enter a tree in the local fair... Not as much, but it's not a national exibit either. They get money for the pot and support that way. I'd assume anyone entering also desires to support the event and see it succede. No one is required to enter, or pay a dime for that matter.

 

[Vance Wood]

Very well said Bob! And I believe we need to stop trying to be offended by someone who does it differently than we do. It is possible to assume that people make mistakes rather than intentionally offend us. (Disclaimer: I'm not saying anyone made a mistake; just that we're human and it happens. And pleasing everyone is an impossible feat for anyone.)

Keep doing bonsai and loving it!

For better or worse you can not rule out those who find justification in running down the accomplishments of others. The larger the so called celebrity the greater the feeling of justification, in critique or just plain mean condemnation couched in flowery prose. I guess it boils down to the crabs in a bucket attitude toward anyone who wants to do something better, or new or necessary that no one else has tried or accomplished.

 

[fourteener]

How did this turn into such a mess?
I don't understand the bashing of anyone for doing what they believe in.If one doesn't agree then find a different way. There are plenty available. Personally I find the range of bonsai in this country exciting. I don't care if its someone who is happy with a stick in a pot or someone who is trying to create a tree worthy of entry into the Kokufuten- they both have as much right to enjoy what they define as bonsai without being put down.
I think its fantastic that some groups of people are trying to elevate the status of the bonsai art and apprecaite and surpport their efforts. I also love the shear pleasure a beginner gets triming and wiring their first nana. The awesome thing about American bonsai is that there is room for all of us no matter what our level of appreciation. I think some people get so wrapped up in their prefrence that it becomes a case of do it like I do or you're not doing it right.
Not everyone cares whether or not bonsai becomes more accepted as fine art. Nor should they have too. For many it's a peaceful hobby. Some people are content just to keep a tree in a little pot alive. Some want to go further and learn more and maybe they'll work with bigger nursery stock or even a collected tree. Others are willing to spend the money to buy really good material from a bonsai nursery- can't aford anything more then small nursery or big box store plants. Some want to devote their life to it- go to Japan and study and come back and work as bonsai professionals. Some people can spend countless hours with their trees others have other time commitments. Some like classical Japanese style trees others like more naturalistic trees others just like a little tree in a pot.
Who are any of us to say that any of these people are doing it wrong? Or to put someone down for trying to do something that they believe in? Instead I think we should be welcoming all and accepting whatever the level of commitment they have. Thats not to say we shouldn't give everyone the opportunityto advance their appreciation but we shouldn't try to shove our way down thier throat. There is plenty of room for all. If one doesn't like one way of thinking and doing there is always a different way available to them.

Like the Koi example, I'll give an illustration from another discipline. I was part of a photography website. The point was to give critique, learn to take better photos. This group of people degenerated into flattery. Every kitten, flower, senior photo was excellent, astounding, wow your a great photographer. The matriarch of the group wanted praise by giving praise. The pictures got worse, the praise was almost to the point of lying to people.

There is a delicate balance between advice that moves things forward, advances Bonsai and helps people, and flattery that tells everyone their tree is great when we all know it's not.

I think some people are trying to raise the level of good bonsai here in America and I can't fault that desire. Deciding whose standard to measure with is a difficult challenge, but trust me... not everyone is right. It is possible people are doing what they believe in and put out a bad product. I've seen trees that look more like Dr Seuss product than a good pleasing tree that is good bonsai. Let's not act like there is no standard by which we judge.

That being said I took my very wild looking Cedar to a Bonsai Master and he took all of the wild out of it and replaced it with boring stairsteps, 1st layer, 2nd layer blah, blah,blah.

We should raise the standards and strive for excellence.
Not all standards are equal.
I prefer wild to formulas, but there is a reason why the formula works.
There are backyards of great trees not engaged in a fight about these things.
I like the idea of random people on a panel of judges(I guess that's what a people's choice award is). I will also say that people in my backyard pick bad trees as their favorites(it's not always a great solution).
It is unfortunate that good work has been written off.

My kids go rock picking, they start off finding cool stuff. As they look at more and more average rocks they begin to bring rocks that have no interest at all. Our eyes can get worn down by the common and art is about what is inspiring.


Words can be fruitless, let's work on our trees!!

 

[bonsaibp]

My point is that if making that Dr. Seuss tree makes the owner happy why should we force them to try to make it better. We can tell them what we feel is the right way but should respect the fact that not everyone is interested in making "good" bonsai. Some people aren't interested in raising the standards- does that mean they should be excluded from enjoying their trees?
Their are people who are happy with what some of us may call mediocre trees, who are we to try to force them to change. I've seen trees I would throw away that others are really pleased with and I'm sure I have trees that some people think are crap that I really like.
Why do all bonsai have to be judged by anyones standard? There is nothing wrong with trying to advance bonsai- I personally am all for it but I'm not going to bash someone who has a different idea.

 

[fourteener]

My point is that if making that Dr. Seuss tree makes the owner happy why should we force them to try to make it better. We can tell them what we feel is the right way but should respect the fact that not everyone is interested in making "good" bonsai. Some people aren't interested in raising the standards- does that mean they should be excluded from enjoying their trees?
Their are people who are happy with what some of us may call mediocre trees, who are we to try to force them to change. I've seen trees I would throw away that others are really pleased with and I'm sure I have trees that some people think are crap that I really like.
Why do all bonsai have to be judged by anyones standard? There is nothing wrong with trying to advance bonsai- I personally am all for it but I'm not going to bash someone who has a different idea.

So a topiary is bonsai? I mean, as long as people are happy with it. Anything in a pot is bonsai as long as the owner is happy with it. I'm thinking there is more to it than that.

 

[Gene Deci]

So a topiary is bonsai? I mean, as long as people are happy with it. Anything in a pot is bonsai as long as the owner is happy with it. I'm thinking there is more to it than that.

I have to respond because exactly that happened to me a few years ago. I had occasion to look at a collection of trees. To my mind, most of them were topiary and the rest were just weird. The owner was pleased and proud and I was trying to think of a diplomatic way of telling him they were not bonsai. But it occurred to me that I have no standing to make that judgement. They were small trees in pots. The fact that I did not care for them was irrelevant.

bonsaibp has a good point. In this country, the majority of trees are owned by the hobbyists who created them and who get a great deal of joy from that. Isn't that a good thing, independent of any judgement of the quality of the trees? Inclusiveness does not prevent professionals from advancing their practice of the art according to whatever standards they revere. Most of us will never even fully appreciate the subtleties of those standards and have no expectations to the contrary but that doesn't mean we should give up what we do.

 

[JudyB]

I think that the difference only matters when the owner invites judgement or critique by entering the tree or "topiary" into a judged contest. Then it should be held to whatever standard that the contest is being judged by.
Other than that, it's up to the personal taste of the artist to do with as they please, and without judgement, unless it is sought out or wanted.
Most of the time here on the forum, we seek critique to better our trees, which is as it should be, and what the forum is all about as far as I'm concerned.

 

[fourteener]

I have to respond because exactly that happened to me a few years ago. I had occasion to look at a collection of trees. To my mind, most of them were topiary and the rest were just weird. The owner was pleased and proud and I was trying to think of a diplomatic way of telling him they were not bonsai. But it occurred to me that I have no standing to make that judgement. They were small trees in pots. The fact that I did not care for them was irrelevant.

bonsaibp has a good point. In this country, the majority of trees are owned by the hobbyists who created them and who get a great deal of joy from that. Isn't that a good thing, independent of any judgement of the quality of the trees? Inclusiveness does not prevent professionals from advancing their practice of the art according to whatever standards they revere. Most of us will never even fully appreciate the subtleties of those standards and have no expectations to the contrary but that doesn't mean we should give up what we do.

So my point here is not...that people have to give up what they do no matter how topiary-like it is. There doesn't have to be Bonsai police out busting people.

My point is... There is some level of standard or common idea of what good bonsai looks like. To enter a show means a judge is going to have some basis for saying good job to one and great job to another.

Some statements on here reflect our youth sports culture. Participation medals for everyone. A tree is not great just because it is! The masters trying to raise the level of Bonsai here in America are probably living in reaction to the above. Whether or not they are going about it in a way that is helpful is a valuable question.

 

[Dan W.]

I didn't take the same away, as you fortuneer, from the statement by Bob. I agree whole-heartedly that people are free to pursue bonsai at whatever level they want... Even if many of us wouldn't consider it bonsai. -- But obviously those trees won't, and shouldn't, be allowed into serious bonsai competitions.

We would never tell someone they aren't painting, just because it's not very good, or that people can't go to the park and play a game of baseball just because they aren't in the big league. It's the same in bonsai. Some just take it more seriously than others. Now if someone making topiary wants to create bonsai that can compete on a higher level, then they will likely learn very quickly that their topiary isn't going to cut it.

 

[misfit11]

The official announcement regarding the postponement of the Artisans's cup is now available on Michael Hagedorn's blog:

http://crataegus.com/2013/05/01/artisans-cup-postponed-until-september-2015/

 

[fourteener]

I guess I've not been exposed to a hobby where craftsmanship wasn't encouraged. Interesting!!

 

[bonsaibp]

I'm not saying craftsmanship shouldn't be encouraged-it should be and I do it in every class I teach. What I'm saying is not everyone wants to or can be a craftsman and we should accept that.

 

[Dan W.]

I guess I've not been exposed to a hobby where craftsmanship wasn't encouraged. Interesting!!

Encouraged and controlled are very different. I haven't seen anyone post that one should not be encouraged to create better bonsai. The issue we were talking about was that those who don't do it well shouldn't be told not to do it or even not to enjoy it. Some don't want to do it better. Would you tell them they can't do bonsai as a hobby? I wouldn't.

I'm full force behind a better and stronger bonsai community. I hope it is allways growing and bettering. These are two very different issues.

 

[fourteener]

Encouraged and controlled are very different. I haven't seen anyone post that one should not be encouraged to create better bonsai. The issue we were talking about was that those who don't do it well shouldn't be told not to do it or even not to enjoy it. Some don't want to do it better. Would you tell them they can't do bonsai as a hobby? I wouldn't.

I'm full force behind a better and stronger bonsai community. I hope it is allways growing and bettering. These are two very different issues.

That's why I separated them!

 

[Nybonsai12]

All of BP's posts in this thread should be restated. He has the right outlook.

Some folks just need to relax and enjoy.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Encouraged and controlled are very different. I haven't seen anyone post that one should not be encouraged to create better bonsai. The issue we were talking about was that those who don't do it well shouldn't be told not to do it or even not to enjoy it. Some don't want to do it better. Would you tell them they can't do bonsai as a hobby? I wouldn't.

I'm full force behind a better and stronger bonsai community. I hope it is allways growing and bettering. These are two very different issues.

This is spot on. All my trees probably suck to most experienced folk. I don't care, I love em. And i'd also love for someone to try and tell me I can't do bonsai. They would be picking their teeth up off the floor.

 

[Dan W.]

That's why I separated them!

Seriously? You're getting heated about something that we all agree on. -- I simply tried to clarify that Bob and I we're not saying what it seemed you accused us of saying.

 

[Dan W.]

So my point here is not...that people have to give up what they do no matter how topiary-like it is. There doesn't have to be Bonsai police out busting people.

My point is... There is some level of standard or common idea of what good bonsai looks like. To enter a show means a judge is going to have some basis for saying good job to one and great job to another.

I agree with you here 100%

I just don't appreciate being accused of havng a "youth sports culture... medals for everyone" standard for simply believing that people can enjoy topiary thinking its bonsai. I don't want to see topiary at the Artisans Cup. -- I wouldn't be surprised to see one at the local fair bonsai exibit. I would obviously assume that a judge worth anything will give the rewards to respectable bonsai rather than topiary. (Hopefuly the guy who entered his topiary will see the differnece and seek to create bonsai, or enter into the topiarty category next time.) Please take a breath and realize that we're on the same side.

 

[fourteener]

Seriously? You're getting heated about something that we all agree on. -- I simply tried to clarify that Bob and I we're not saying what it seemed you accused us of saying.

I am not heated about anything. This will be my last post in this thread. I am simply trying to convey this message...

There is a standard by which we give feedback to anyone who posts trees on this sight. I see it all the time, someone posts a tree and several people thank them for posting it, several people write something to extol it's virtues. We believe in some standard by which to say any of that.

The problem I see is a group of people who say "to #^!* with people's standards" and yet in another thread will say they like something because..."they are appealing to a standard." I recognize a crooked line only because I know what a straight line looks like.

The argument in the Cup thread is about whose standard do we go by. Tossing out standards becomes the solution. I am trying to point out that that is not actually a solution.

I am not arguing anything about who can and can't do Bonsai, in any way shape or form.

If I've been unclear I apologize. I simply want to state that any evaluation we do of anyone's tree is rooted in a standard of expectation about what is and is not good bonsai. If bonsai is what everyone wants it to be there is no way to offer any evaluation of it. That is all I wanted to say.

 

[Dan W.]

I'm sorry, I believe we've just been misunderstanding each other. I completely agree that to hold any competition, or evaluation, one must use standards. I didn't feel that Bob's comment discounted that. If you were refering to other posts then I completely misunderstood. I appologize.