Bonsai Focus "Reminder"

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Dale's book asserted that more people will like you if you consistently tell them what they want to hear....talk about their interests, use their name, etc.


A quote of Dale's that I particularly like and used as a signature for some time is, "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do."




Will
 

Rick Moquin

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Bottom line it says "say to people what they like to hear". This was a totally foreign notion for a Central European. The book was telling me that I had to lie.
So far to cultural differences.

I read Carnegie's book too Walter and I sure do not remember this quote or message.

Truck

Bold text = in conclusion/summation.
 

Rick Moquin

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'tone of language'

Welcome to globalization. This is NORMAL in the world out there.

Rene sent the email to Walter, and Walter was the one asked to post it here. Why a third person would be offended by Walter being asked to post it here is what's beyond me.

Emil,

Never shoot the messenger, Walter was a mere messenger and was not shot for posting Renes e-mail.

The whole fracas started with the first quote here, subsequent to a posting that stated in part that a different tone would have been appreciated, considering the e-mail came from a business.

Notwithstanding, I believe due consideration was given to the fact that English is not Renes and Walter's native language, before the fracas ensued. How cultural differences became a factor in this debate is beyond me when used as an explanation for rude behaviour, magazine content was merely a red herring.

In summation the gist of the entire thread was put up with it, or go elsewhere. That is the tone used that caused folks to get their nickers in a twist. Freedom of choice is still a civil liberty in this world for the time being. Cultural difference aside, the choice to subscribed to a magazine for content or customer service is still very much in the hands of it's membership. In order to maintain your client base, you either provide either or both, preferably both. You might be a business but it is the customer that decides of where/who is patronage will go to. It's that simple.

In closing, since you admitted you have not been following this thread, may I be so bold to suggest you get your facts strait before commenting from the seat of your pants.

A business saying:

If you are dis-satisfied please tell me. If you are satisfied please tell others.
 
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Emil Brannstrom

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Emil,

Never shoot the messenger, Walter was a mere messenger and was not shot for posting Renes e-mail.

The whole fracas started with the first quote here, subsequent to a posting that stated in part that a different tone would have been appreciated, considering the e-mail came from a business.

Notwithstanding, I believe due consideration was given to the fact that English is not Renes and Walter's native language, before the fracas ensued. How cultural differences became a factor in this debate is beyond me when used as an explanation for rude behaviour, magazine content was merely a red herring.

In summation the gist of the entire thread was put up with it, or go elsewhere. That is the tone used that caused folks to get their nickers in a twist. Freedom of choice is still a civil liberty in this world for the time being. Cultural difference aside, the choice to subscribed to a magazine for content or customer service is still very much in the hands of it's membership. In order to maintain your client base, you either provide either or both, preferably both. You might be a business but it is the customer that decides of where/who is patronage will go to. It's that simple.

In closing, since you admitted you have not been following this thread, may I be so bold to suggest you get your facts strait before commenting from the seat of your pants.

A business saying:

If you are dis-satisfied please tell me. If you are satisfied please tell others.

ok, I might have misread. I hope I didn't offend anyone :rolleyes:
 

Rick Moquin

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Dale's book asserted that more people will like you if you consistently tell them what they want to hear....talk about their interests, use their name, etc.


A quote of Dale's that I particularly like and used as a signature for some time is, "Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do."




Will

... a saying from I don't know who.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar!
 

R_F

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Emil,

this is a misunderstanding. Ryan is offended by anything that remotely sounds like criticism of his way of seeing the world. Don't worry about him. This has nothing to do with the mail.

Your arrogance is astonishing. I'm offended by prideful and rude people like you...not by ways that are different from my perspective on the world. I was never offended by BF's "reminder" but I did think that the email written by Renee was rude....but I wasn't really offended by it as much as I was offended by your snide comment directed towards Americans at the top of page 2 of this whole thing. Bashing how Americans live in this world seems to be a pattern for you...
 

Emil Brannstrom

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Not a problem, I hope I didn't offend you in setting the record straight :rolleyes:

Not at all, I'm offended by RyanFrye is being offended by the percieved offense is Rene's so called offending email. I also suspect that Walter is being offended by his offensive remark that Walter the Offender is painting with the offensive big brush when it comes to Americans, which he didn't, and that interpretation should offend basically everyone.

Yours in offensiveness
Emil
 

Rick Moquin

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Not at all, I'm offended by RyanFrye is being offended by the percieved offense is Rene's so called offending email. I also suspect that Walter is being offended by his offensive remark that Walter the Offender is painting with the offensive big brush when it comes to Americans, which he didn't, and that interpretation should offend basically everyone.

Yours in offensiveness
Emil
I think there is much more going on between the two than what is seen here. I personally don't care about "their" feud nor where it started. Should you?
 

R_F

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and that interpretation should offend basically everyone.

Why should "everyone" be offended for Walter's sake? I'm still confused in regards to how and why you are defending Walter.

At the very top of page 2 he insinuated that American perception of communication isn't "normal" and that the rest of the world is "normal". This isn't the first time he has made that kind of comment that is slanted against Americans.
 

Emil Brannstrom

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I think there is much more going on between the two than what is seen here. I personally don't care about "their" feud nor where it started. Should you?

No, and I really don't. I just wanted to point out how everyone seems to be so offended by everyone elses behavior. If you're not offended by the invoice you're offended by Rene's mail. If you're not offended by those two you're offended by Walters attitude. If you're not offended by Walters attitude you're offended by someones reply etc...It just seems to me like there's some kind of competition going on concerning who has the thinnest skin.


Why should "everyone" be offended for Walter's sake? I'm still confused in regards to how and why you are defending Walter.

At the very top of page 2 he insinuated that American perception of communication isn't "normal" and that the rest of the world is "normal". This isn't the first time he has made that kind of comment that is slanted against Americans.

Is a response directed at a single individual valid for the whole American population? Should I take it that you speak for the entire American population? Should I apologize to the American ppl on behalf of the Euorpean community since one of our citizens might have insulted one of yours?
 

Walter Pall

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I have this strange feeling of being in the wrong movie here. But it is entertaining at least.This is so unreal, I cannot take this for being serious.
 

Rick Moquin

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No, and I really don't. I just wanted to point out how everyone seems to be so offended by everyone elses behavior. If you're not offended by the invoice you're offended by Rene's mail. If you're not offended by those two you're offended by Walters attitude. If you're not offended by Walters attitude you're offended by someones reply etc...It just seems to me like there's some kind of competition going on concerning who has the thinnest skin.

Interesting slant Emil. I don't consider myself thin skinned but rather an individual who will not hold back in stating what is right or what is wrong. Walter made an interesting observation wrt his epiphany where, he stated since he couldn't change the world in order to function in it he needed to change his perceptions, and I am fine with that in principle. However...

Whilst we can't change the world wouldn't it be nice to improve it? Accepting and condoning bad behaviour or in this instance bad business practice only fuels the fire and widens the gap of what should be sociably acceptable. You may be too young to realize that once upon a time folks were actually courteous to each other, did such behaviour indicate they were thin skinned? No! I believe it was a demonstration of civility and the latter across all cultures. What happened to that era we used to embrace? How did it get to be the way it is? and... should we allow it to remain the way it is?

Once upon a time folks were treated with respect, adults were treated with respect, neighbours were treated with respect, the law was treated with the utmost respect. So what happened to all that? How did we get this far? Is it perhaps that we slowly allowed good common sense values of proper decorum to be slowly eroded away and replaced with nonchalant flippant attitudes. In your personal opinion do you think a six or seven year old telling you to F... Off is normal, if it is then are views are definitely skewed/ Yet we see more and more of this, why is that?

I know the answers to my own questions, can we change the destiny? Not in this lifetime. So what are we to do about it. Well Walter is right you can't change the world and I'm not about to try. What is within my capabilities is to surround myself with folks that share similar values, welcome those who are willing to embrace those values and ignore the rest.

When it comes down to business practices, nothing replaces common courtesy and customer service, it fosters customer loyalty, something big corporations couldn't care less about these days. As I mentioned providing that more enter the door than those that are leaving the corporate world couldn't give a damn about those that are leaving. On the other hand it would be interesting to see how quick they would change their attitude if the situation was reversed. After all it is because of their customers that these folks are capable of earning a living. I have patronized the same pizza joint for the last 20 years. Recently the father passed (sold it) in down to his son. In a swift commercial move the prices went up an unreasonable amount and the size of said pizzas shrank. Hey no big deal right? Well it goes further than that, they have changed their recipe, why is beyond me. The latter would be understandable if the business was sold to a competitor or a new owner but it remained in the family, so why mess around with success? What type of customer was I? Well when you can get a pizza delivered without stating your address, it seems to me they know who you are and appreciate your patronage. Now I find myself in the unfortunate situation of finding another establishment to cater to our weekly fare. Why? Well... several reasons. Quality control is no longer existent in this particular parlor, price change was foreseeable and although a little steep was acceptable, size was another determining factor but, that in itself was not a deal breaker but, a change in the recipe resulted in 3 strikes you're out. The new owner's explanation I can't control how everyone makes their pies. Excuse me! Don't you have a training program? I embrace creativity. ??? cool but is there any chance that I can get my old pizza back? No guarantees there as I am not always in the shop. OK, ??? Even before the shop was sold to his son, we could tell who made the pizza that night (father or son) albeit a subtle difference. So if it ain't broke why F... with it? Anyway I am now seeking a new avenue, not because of poor customer service (sort of (not heeding to a customers request could be construed as lack of service)) but the product no longer meets my expectations. Unlike Walter's experience in East Germany, I do have a choice, and choose to move on as disappointing as that may seem.

Back to East Germany, Walter was totally pissed with the situation and, he had every right to be. Unfortunately, on that side of the border it was either accept things as is or go elsewhere, in Walter's case there was no other place to go, so he resigned himself to his fate. However the same behaviour he deplored then is almost embraced today as "normal". Why is that? He had an epiphany! He changed his expectations and in doing so endorsed rude behaviour and in the process allowed rude behaviour to fester eroding civility and common courtesy.

Now, that particular instance was insufficient to cause the society we live in today but, a series of such ideology could and would caused a chain reaction in my opinion to the extent that is manifested today. In that particular case Walter may not of had a choice, but when someone has a choice, they should embraced the former rather than promote the latter.

So if standing up for your values = being thin skinned, then so be it, I can live with that. Sticks and stones... However, what I can't live with is accepting everything that is rammed down my throat. I am not naive enough to think that I can change the world, but I sure am going to at least try and maintain civility in the small portion that surrounds me. Is that too much to ask for? After all if I didn't uphold my values I would have no integrity and, without integrity I couldn't live with myself.
 

Emil Brannstrom

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Interesting slant Emil. I don't consider myself thin skinned but rather an individual who will not hold back in stating what is right or what is wrong. Walter made an interesting observation wrt his epiphany where, he stated since he couldn't change the world in order to function in it he needed to change his perceptions, and I am fine with that in principle. However...

Whilst we can't change the world wouldn't it be nice to improve it? Accepting and condoning bad behaviour or in this instance bad business practice only fuels the fire and widens the gap of what should be sociably acceptable. You may be too young to realize that once upon a time folks were actually courteous to each other, did such behaviour indicate they were thin skinned? No! I believe it was a demonstration of civility and the latter across all cultures. What happened to that era we used to embrace? How did it get to be the way it is? and... should we allow it to remain the way it is?

Once upon a time folks were treated with respect, adults were treated with respect, neighbours were treated with respect, the law was treated with the utmost respect. So what happened to all that? How did we get this far? Is it perhaps that we slowly allowed good common sense values of proper decorum to be slowly eroded away and replaced with nonchalant flippant attitudes. In your personal opinion do you think a six or seven year old telling you to F... Off is normal, if it is then are views are definitely skewed/ Yet we see more and more of this, why is that?

I know the answers to my own questions, can we change the destiny? Not in this lifetime. So what are we to do about it. Well Walter is right you can't change the world and I'm not about to try. What is within my capabilities is to surround myself with folks that share similar values, welcome those who are willing to embrace those values and ignore the rest.

When it comes down to business practices, nothing replaces common courtesy and customer service, it fosters customer loyalty, something big corporations couldn't care less about these days. As I mentioned providing that more enter the door than those that are leaving the corporate world couldn't give a damn about those that are leaving. On the other hand it would be interesting to see how quick they would change their attitude if the situation was reversed. After all it is because of their customers that these folks are capable of earning a living. I have patronized the same pizza joint for the last 20 years. Recently the father passed (sold it) in down to his son. In a swift commercial move the prices went up an unreasonable amount and the size of said pizzas shrank. Hey no big deal right? Well it goes further than that, they have changed their recipe, why is beyond me. The latter would be understandable if the business was sold to a competitor or a new owner but it remained in the family, so why mess around with success? What type of customer was I? Well when you can get a pizza delivered without stating your address, it seems to me they know who you are and appreciate your patronage. Now I find myself in the unfortunate situation of finding another establishment to cater to our weekly fare. Why? Well... several reasons. Quality control is no longer existent in this particular parlor, price change was foreseeable and although a little steep was acceptable, size was another determining factor but, that in itself was not a deal breaker but, a change in the recipe resulted in 3 strikes you're out. The new owner's explanation I can't control how everyone makes their pies. Excuse me! Don't you have a training program? I embrace creativity. ??? cool but is there any chance that I can get my old pizza back? No guarantees there as I am not always in the shop. OK, ??? Even before the shop was sold to his son, we could tell who made the pizza that night (father or son) albeit a subtle difference. So if it ain't broke why F... with it? Anyway I am now seeking a new avenue, not because of poor customer service (sort of (not heeding to a customers request could be construed as lack of service)) but the product no longer meets my expectations. Unlike Walter's experience in East Germany, I do have a choice, and choose to move on as disappointing as that may seem.

Back to East Germany, Walter was totally pissed with the situation and, he had every right to be. Unfortunately, on that side of the border it was either accept things as is or go elsewhere, in Walter's case there was no other place to go, so he resigned himself to his fate. However the same behaviour he deplored then is almost embraced today as "normal". Why is that? He had an epiphany! He changed his expectations and in doing so endorsed rude behaviour and in the process allowed rude behaviour to fester eroding civility and common courtesy.

Now, that particular instance was insufficient to cause the society we live in today but, a series of such ideology could and would caused a chain reaction in my opinion to the extent that is manifested today. In that particular case Walter may not of had a choice, but when someone has a choice, they should embraced the former rather than promote the latter.

So if standing up for your values = being thin skinned, then so be it, I can live with that. Sticks and stones... However, what I can't live with is accepting everything that is rammed down my throat. I am not naive enough to think that I can change the world, but I sure am going to at least try and maintain civility in the small portion that surrounds me. Is that too much to ask for? After all if I didn't uphold my values I would have no integrity and, without integrity I couldn't live with myself.

All I meant was that nowadays taking things personal and taking offense seems to be the default stance among the majority. I wish I could explain to you exactly what I mean with as much nuance as this discourse needs...It's like what you say about respect, but it seems the pendulum is all the way to the other end where anyone "doesn't get any respect at all". Back in the days, maybe people would have been better off not showing quite the amount of respect they did and maybe people today shouldn't think they deserve as much respect as they think they do. It's a poor explanation and way too short to really make sense but do you see what I mean?
 

Rick Moquin

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You are indeed trying to sum it up quite nicely although inaccurately.

All I meant was that nowadays taking things personal and taking offense seems to be the default stance among the majority.

If that's the case then who is at fault, the majority or the minority? but I wouldn't call it a "default" stance perse. If 9 out of 10 people think youre an A ...hole, then there is a pretty good chance that you are.

I wish I could explain to you exactly what I mean with as much nuance as this discourse needs...It's like what you say about respect, but it seems the pendulum is all the way to the other end where anyone "doesn't get any respect at all".

Exactly and why is that. Have we become so self-centered that we don't care about our neighbours anymore?

Back in the days, maybe people would have been better off not showing quite the amount of respect they did and maybe people today shouldn't think they deserve as much respect as they think they do.

Perhaps civility would have been a better word vice respect. Back in the day we respected our fellow man, now it seems it is an unimportant and insignificant part of everyday life. To further exacerbate the problem the "offenders" substantiate their lack of civility with more rude behaviour. Is that a way to function in a society, regardless of culture?

Probably the most challenging question in my mind, for which I do not have an answer is: Why do people who fled their native country because of x, y and z;, try to impose x, y, and z on their adopted one. Why would one even think of changing things to what they fled. That one completely flabbergasts me?

It's a poor explanation and way too short to really make sense but do you see what I mean?

Nope!
 

R_F

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No, and I really don't. I just wanted to point out how everyone seems to be so offended by everyone elses behavior. If you're not offended by the invoice you're offended by Rene's mail. If you're not offended by those two you're offended by Walters attitude. If you're not offended by Walters attitude you're offended by someones reply etc...It just seems to me like there's some kind of competition going on concerning who has the thinnest skin.

And you are offended by this entire thread...so....who's calling the kettle black?



Is a response directed at a single individual valid for the whole American population? Should I take it that you speak for the entire American population? Should I apologize to the American ppl on behalf of the Euorpean community since one of our citizens might have insulted one of yours?

I can see why you would make this assessment...however in the context of other conversations I have had and witnessed with Walter his attitude towards Americans can be very berating.

Not only that but I remember over at BT (were you even "around" then?) he had a "Ask the Master section" and when people who were less than accomplished would question him he would get very offended. As though he were beyond that....

In fact he got so offended he quit doing it. If there's one thing I don't tolerate it is a haughty "master"...I don't care how good you are at what you do.
 
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R_F

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I've posted my piece so now I'm out...if anyone would like to continue this discussion with me you can do so through PM, I wouldn't mind doing it there.
 

bretts

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I just caught this thread and have read it right through so for any that have lost their way let me summarise how I see it.


Bonsai Focus sends out account due/debt collection notices instead of invitations to continue the subscription.
René Rooswinkel Publisher responds to this criticism with threats of increasing the price of the magazine because it costs alot of money to send reminder notices. Yet does not concede that wording such letters differently costs nothing!
Nor does he figure that less flights gallivanting around the world as he often brags about in the editorial at the start of every magazine could considerably cut the cost to subscribers.
He also insinuates that we are a bunch of wingers.
And who is complaining then???
He writes the complaints off as a "misunderstanding of cultural compromise" Not a Eroupean thing? I wonder what culture he is compromising too that he needs to write renewals as debt collection if not Europe?

Then he states he has better things to do than to address his readers on this concern. Stating he has another issue to produce which I guess means another flight he has to catch.
I think the real reason is though that he wants to distance himself from this discussion.

Also to this we have comments from a few members that state akin to this debt collection letter they are also disappointed with the overall customer service of the publication.
As you may guess I am also one of those!
Then we have a few members that are affiliated with the magazine or friends with the publishers stating that they see no issue and have only had good dealings with them.
Then attilia seems to be in a separate class. Does not really care about anything as long as the magazine arrives but has alot to say none the less :rolleyes:

I myself have stopped buying the magazine for exactly this reason.
I had never had a bonsai magazine subscription before but with the good reviews that Bonsai Focus got on the first edition I decided to give them a go.
I received the first magazine and although found it great, being a deciduous grower I was a little disappointed with the species covered but was looking forward to the write up on refining a hornbeam by Micheal Persiano that was advertised for the next issue.
The next issue arrived and I searched and searched for the article when I couldn't find it I read the editorial looking for an apology and information of it's absence. Nothing there so again searching the magazine thinking it must be in their. But it Wasn't.
This article was the deciding factor for me subscribing to the magazine so I corresponded with the publisher who responded they never gave it any thought to mention, explain or apologise for the missing article It will be in a future edition which could be next year. I thought this was fairly strange as it was advertised as a main feature of the magazine.
I always figure the best way to get service out of a company is to hit them where it hurts which is in their hip pocket so considering that I decided to subscribe wanting to read about hornbeams Imanaged to talk them into sending me a back issue that did have an article about hornbeams in it.

Then I ordered The best of Bonsai in Europe Vol. 6. This was the most I had ever spent on a book but had heard great things of how the book was a collector's item for years to come. The book arrived and I was very disappointed to find under the plastic cover the box of the book was quite scuffed and damaged as well as teh cover of the book. This was obviosly done before mailing as the plastic covering the book was not damaged. Then when I opened the book I found the pages had a horizontal crease mark in the first half of the book. Obviously the pages had been creased before the hard cover had gone on because it was impossible to crease the pages like this once the cover was on.
I contacted the publication about this and was told to email in some pictures which I did. I received no reply so after some time I sent another email. They asked to see the pictures again so I resent them again I got no response. I contacted them again and they started to tell me that I needed to pay for the return of the book to get a replacement. I noted that on their site they had a return policy that they paid. They stated it was outside the allotted time and sighted my order date. I made note that I had contacted them as soon as the book arrived but the book had turned up months late as they had had publisher issues.
I received a bunch of replies that made little sense and in this regard I found them rude. So I contacted them by phone I was addressed with total contempt and disregard. I could not believe the lack of concern they showed for a disgruntled customer.
I had no choice but to give up so I am left with the most expensive book I ever bought being a damaged book.

I had taken note of Bonsai Focus' split with Stone Lantern around this time and the message that René Rooswinkel Publisher had put on his site noting this. I found the undertone of finger pointing at Stone Lantern in this note as the reason for the split quite humorous and thought if your dealings with me are anything to go by I doubt they are they issue. I wonderd if this attitude would keep them going.

I also noted that with all the hype about Bonsai focus embracing the Internet age with videos and pictures on their website as extentions of the magazinesoon disappeared just like the hornbeam article with no explanation to it's readers.

As I said I have since not renewed my subscription afte4r the second year but just had a quick look on the website. Their may be a few new pictures that I had not seen before but I would not know when they are from as there is no description or date with them. It also seems to be at the expense of all previous pictures.:eek:

The last new video is still from the first issue this year when they stopped updating with every issue as they promised.

It seems to me the publishers have little regard to serving the subscribers but do enjoy gallivanting around the world taking pictures of trees and furthering their own purposes.

As to René Rooswinkel Publisher comment.
Look at it from another perspective and realize that you receive 6 times 100 pages - that is 600 pages total - of high quality information on bonsai each year for only $ 59.95 including shipping costs.
What BOOK can compete with that???????????

I have looked at it from that perspective and I decided that there are a number of great quality books out there that I would rather have than a one year subscription to a magazine that cares less about it's readers.

When I do decide to subscribe to a magazine again it won't be with him. America and Japan is not the only countries that appreciate good relations with the business's they deal with.
 
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pauldogx

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In fact he got so offended he quit doing it. If there's one thing I don't tolerate it is a haughty "master"...I don't care how good you are at what you do.

Really??? You obviously have never spent time with people who are the best in the world at what they do. I have and most of the time supreme confidence and expertise is percieved as "haughtiness" or "arrogance". Your loss if you can't tell the difference.

BTW--Miss Vic explicitly stated that she didn't want this to become a BF bashing thread....and yet what a glorious cluster***k it has become.

Ryan, I have a suggestion. How bout doin a workshop with Walter sometime???
 
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