Cut back on a JBP

Anthony

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Sifu,

I checked that with Japan and China, and the opinion was Sunlight.
The reason was, if the trees needed Winter's rest, they would have died off after 3 to 5 years.
Like maples do without the use of a fridge.

Remember when we plant the Japanese seed, out of say 30 something, 25 or so grow and then about 5 or so die off as the year
goes by. The rest grow on very well.
Zone 10 seed seems to be able to Winter by shortening days and not necessarily cold [ as you experience it ].

Our problem seems to be that we produce so many buds, that we should have eliminated all and allowed a new single one to regrow.
For even the side shoot buds, already present can grow normal sized needles.
So we will have to eliminate, all the present buds and start afresh.

Additionally, apart from the lush state, adventitious buds are always popping out.
So we can theoretically keep going backwards on a branchlet. Keeping the trees permanently short.

This was also observed on the Caribbean pine, the continuous budding.
Which is why we grow the two pines, to check for responses.

We have spent more time observing, and less time trying to Bonsai, so our results are different to other tropical growers, thus far.
As I typed before Australia is also recording slightly different responses due to long mild growing seasons.

Because we work with many of the same type in order to learn, Health [ lush ] is the first objective, and much later will
come Design [ training ].

Remember we use builder's gravel [ silica based ] and aged compost, not volcanic soil types - pumice / red lava and so on,
and thus far on all of our trees, this mix - seems - to discourage root thickening, except in Ficus p. which is happy to live
on walls or in gutters, and does as it wishes.
So the rules have to be made up, as we go along.

Yes, I know more frustration for Sifu.
Good Day
Anthony


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Adair M

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It's not frustrating for me, Anthony, but it HAS to be frustrating for you!

The JBP doesn't need to sleep in winter to regain its energy, it loves hot weather, and goes in hot weather. The winter FORCES it to stop growing, take time off.

This is why decandling works for us to shorten needles. It's not that the second set of needles is naturally any shorter than the first, decandling shortens the growing season available for the second flush. They grow until the tree senses cool weather, and prepares itself for that by reducing the fluids in the needles and branches. So as to make itself more cold tolerant.

It is probably the combination of cooler weather and shorter days that cause this to happen. I'm sure @osoyoung knows!

I bet if I decandled one of my pines on the 4th of July like I always do, then took it to your place, the "summer candles" would not stop growing, they would continue to full size!

They have the same issue in Hawaii. The trees grow, but they really can't control the needle length.
 

JoeR

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It's not frustrating for me, Anthony, but it HAS to be frustrating for you!

The JBP doesn't need to sleep in winter to regain its energy, it loves hot weather, and goes in hot weather. The winter FORCES it to stop growing, take time off.

This is why decandling works for us to shorten needles. It's not that the second set of needles is naturally any shorter than the first, decandling shortens the growing season available for the second flush. They grow until the tree senses cool weather, and prepares itself for that by reducing the fluids in the needles and branches. So as to make itself more cold tolerant.

It is probably the combination of cooler weather and shorter days that cause this to happen. I'm sure @osoyoung knows!

I bet if I decandled one of my pines on the 4th of July like I always do, then took it to your place, the "summer candles" would not stop growing, they would continue to full size!

They have the same issue in Hawaii. The trees grow, but they really can't control the needle length.
Hmmm... July 4th, huh? I wonder if timing for me would be around the same time... If anything maybe a tad bit earlier.
 

Adair M

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Hmmm... July 4th, huh? I wonder if timing for me would be around the same time... If anything maybe a tad bit earlier.
Probably!

The 4th of July is an easy date for me to remember. I actually do it on the 3rd or 5th... I'm usually doing something else on the actual 4th. But, it's early July. For my full size pines. I wait 10 days to do the shohin, smaller, trees. That way, their needles will be shorter.

The way to figure it out:

They need 100 days to grow and harden off before frost. So, find your "expected first frost date", and count back 100 days. So, for me, I think it's around Hallowe'en. 100 days back is around mid July.

This year, I have a couple trees I'm exhibiting at the National Show, in mid-Srptember. I want then to look good at the show, so I decandled a little early, so their needles would be the right size at the show. After the show, they will keep growing. So all next year, I'll have longer than usual needles!
 

Adair M

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Anthony,

I don't want to derail my own thread, but I just want to say that over the years, I've found that one of the keys to success with bonsai is growing trees appropriate for your climate. I love JBP, I usually recommend them over other types of pines for people to learn on, but honestly, their growth habit in your climate would always be difficult for you.

Something like an Olive with its small leaves and it's love of hot weather woul be perfect for you!

You see, with my 14 inch tree, I can make it have 3/4 inch needles. Which means I can have lots of branches. And everything stays somewhat in proportion.

But, if I couldn't control the needle length, a tree 14 inches tall with 4 to 5 inch long needles does indeed look "silly"!

There are some cultivars of JBP that naturally produce shorter needles. Propagated by grafting. They have some properties I don't like, such as making fat, stiff candles rather than the thinner more flexible candles of regular JBP.

Those would make short needles without the need for decandling.
 

JoeR

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Probably!

The 4th of July is an easy date for me to remember. I actually do it on the 3rd or 5th... I'm usually doing something else on the actual 4th. But, it's early July. For my full size pines. I wait 10 days to do the shohin, smaller, trees. That way, their needles will be shorter.

The way to figure it out:

They need 100 days to grow and harden off before frost. So, find your "expected first frost date", and count back 100 days. So, for me, I think it's around Hallowe'en. 100 days back is around mid July.

This year, I have a couple trees I'm exhibiting at the National Show, in mid-Srptember. I want then to look good at the show, so I decandled a little early, so their needles would be the right size at the show. After the show, they will keep growing. So all next year, I'll have longer than usual needles!
Thanks, thats very helpful!

My annual first frost date is October 24, one week before Halloween so Ealry July is about right!
 

Anthony

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Thanks Sifu,

we actually use dense branchlets and full sun, to get smaller leaves. Also good fertilising for one month before defoliation.
So now with your additional information, we have something new to test. Thanks a million. !!!!:):):)

Frustrating, no not at all. It is a great learning experience.
Good Day
Anthony
 
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