Cutting Pine Needles
- Thread starter Nishant
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clem
Chumono
In Koji Hiramatsu's garden, a mature/finished JBP which needles have been cut on all the tree.. Maybe to lower the strength of the tree (?) To let the sun enter easier (?)
Obviously, there’s no way to know what was in someone’s mind...
My guess is the tree was not decandled the previous summer, and they want to make sure any interior back buds get sunlight (don’t get shaded).
To my eye, it looks like the tree had been allowed to get leggy in the past, and they’re trying to rehab it, and restore interior growth.
clem
Chumono
I agree with you on the fact that this tree probably has not been decandled the past year because the needles are very long and fat. Maybe, as it seems that mekiri (decandle) isn't done every year in Japan (but every 2 years), 1 year is mekiri and the second year is just pinching back in spring, and then needles cut to lower & balance the strength of the tree. Just a supposition.
I don’t think your assumption is correct about decandling frequency.
It depends!
Once a tree hits the refinement stage, it is usually decandled every year. It is not decandled once in about every five years.
But, it depends! Some trees are just too weak to be decandled every year. Most corkbark JBP are like this. Sometimes a particular tree just doesn’t have enough vigor to decandle every year.
It also depends upon the Master. There is no one “Japanese way”. Bonsai in Japan, the professionals, has long been highly competitive. These guys run family owned bonsai gardens. Family secrets are passed down father to son. The guy who “discovered” decandling, Mr. Suzuki, kept it as a secret for 20 years! It was his competitive advantage! It’s now common knowledge, but for years, no one could figure out how he produced his JBP with such short needles.
But I digress. Not all Japanese do JBP the same way. And some are better at it than others.
clem
Chumono
yes it may dépends on trees, climate & masters.
Kyozuke GUN advise to do it every two years maxi. He explains the discovery of this technic as an accident : a JBP fall on the ground, some candles were cut, and the owner (no name mentionned) discovered with surprise that new buds appeared a few days later, and later new small candles with smaller needles. This fortunate discovery changed the way to cultivate JBP because before the only way to get smaller needles was to weaken the tree with very few fertilizers and water, although the JBP like to be watered and fertilized frequently.
You decandle your JBP several years and it works. What is the reason why you stop decandeling after 4 or 5 years ? Your "teacher" or "master" advised you to do so, or you see the pine becoming too weak to carry on one more time ?
Kyozuke GUN advise to do it every two years maxi. He explains the discovery of this technic as an accident : a JBP fall on the ground, some candles were cut, and the owner (no name mentionned) discovered with surprise that new buds appeared a few days later, and later new small candles with smaller needles. This fortunate discovery changed the way to cultivate JBP because before the only way to get smaller needles was to weaken the tree with very few fertilizers and water, although the JBP like to be watered and fertilized frequently.
You decandle your JBP several years and it works. What is the reason why you stop decandeling after 4 or 5 years ? Your "teacher" or "master" advised you to do so, or you see the pine becoming too weak to carry on one more time ?
The real story is insects ate the new candles. Mr Suzuki thought the tree had been killed, and tossed the tree on the compost pile. It was several weeks later that he noticed new buds emerging from the base of the old shoots that had been eaten.
Yes, decandling is stressful for the tree. If you notice the tree is getting weak, skip a year.
It’s just like repotting. Refined JBP need to be repotted every 5 years or so. Failure to repot will result in the tree getting weaker and weaker.
Long term maintenance is a skill that’s rarely taught (or even considered to be a skill to learn). Because most of us are focused on bonsai creation. It’s not until you have refined bonsai that you have to learn to maintain them. Most of us don’t have refined bonsai, they’re in development.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
This is very true. I remember a day when many of these new refinement techniques came out for balancing vigor, reducing needle length and ramifying a tree. Every body was reading and paying attention to these things especially those just starting out. It was really tuff making people understanding that there was a difference between two major categories of pines and two major categories of development and it was important to know the differences. You cannot use refinement techniques on a tree that is years from needing that kind of treatment, and you cannot use some techniques for one variety of Pine developed to facilitate the other variety of Pine; two flush and single flush Pines.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
That pine I cut the needles on.......
Al, I know you cut the needles on this tree as a demonstration for this thread, but it’s really too sparse! Feed it heavily this spring to build some vigor! Are planning to decandle it this summer? Some of the low branches look pretty weak.
It does appear that you’re getting some backbuds, which is a good thing, of course. Ya gotta just let those grow for a while.
If this were my tree, I would not decandle it this summer. Let it get strong, and resume a decandling program next year.
Thanks for the update.
clem
Chumono
Maybe with time, (repetition), and needle removing selection, (more in the crown and less in the lower branches) you will get the same size of the candles all over the tree. i'm sure the japanese Professional don't do it for pleasure only as it take time.
Here is a Shohin JBP that I cut the needles on:
Like Smoke’s tree, I also have brown tips.
The candles on my tree appear to be stronger than Smoke’s and I AM planning to decandle it this summer. A few of the candles were particularly strong, and I can do a new technique I learned from Daisaku Nomoto:
In the fall, we usually pull old needles, right? And to balance, we sometimes pull some of the new needles. When that’s done, the needles pulled are generally those closest to the trunk. Usually...
Daisaku taught me a new way to combine needle pulling along with decandling to push growth back towards the trunk and shorten internodes, which is especially effective for Shohin JBP.
On the strongest buds, I pulled the needles closest to the new buds, not the ones closest to the trunk! And when I decandle this summer, I’ll cut back to the remaining needles. Forcing needle buds instead of the “adventitious” buds that we usually get at the base of the candle.
I’ve never done it this way before. I wish I knew about this a couple years ago, I have a tree that’s been really vigorous that this technique would have sped development. There’s always something new to learn!
Here’s one of the candles:
The one at the upper right is strong, and should back bud when cut back.
Like Smoke’s tree, I also have brown tips.
The candles on my tree appear to be stronger than Smoke’s and I AM planning to decandle it this summer. A few of the candles were particularly strong, and I can do a new technique I learned from Daisaku Nomoto:
In the fall, we usually pull old needles, right? And to balance, we sometimes pull some of the new needles. When that’s done, the needles pulled are generally those closest to the trunk. Usually...
Daisaku taught me a new way to combine needle pulling along with decandling to push growth back towards the trunk and shorten internodes, which is especially effective for Shohin JBP.
On the strongest buds, I pulled the needles closest to the new buds, not the ones closest to the trunk! And when I decandle this summer, I’ll cut back to the remaining needles. Forcing needle buds instead of the “adventitious” buds that we usually get at the base of the candle.
I’ve never done it this way before. I wish I knew about this a couple years ago, I have a tree that’s been really vigorous that this technique would have sped development. There’s always something new to learn!
Here’s one of the candles:
The one at the upper right is strong, and should back bud when cut back.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Thanks, I appreciate the clarification.
clem
Chumono
Thanks Adair for sharing your technics 
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Here is my pine in this thread after it budded out this year.
On one of the thirty stands. Not finished yet but was begging for a photo.....
View attachment 245740
On one of the thirty stands. Not finished yet but was begging for a photo.....
View attachment 245740
I suspect that Naoki cut the needles on this tree to show what he envisions as what the final image will look like after the tree had settled into the design. If it still had long needles, it would look a mess, and you wouldn’t be able to see what’s there.
Here is a Shohin JBP that’s been decandled every year for at least 5 or 6 years. I’ve only owned it for two, but I’ve seen it at Boon’s ever since I stated going there. I don’t recall ever seeing it with long needles. Right now, this year’s needles are about the same length as last year’s. I’m going to be using it at the upcoming National Shohin Show at the end of June. I’m hoping they won’t be too much bigger by then!
The time to decandle this one is mid July. That gives it a short growing season, so the Summer candles will be short over the winter.
Wine bottle for scale.
The time to decandle this one is mid July. That gives it a short growing season, so the Summer candles will be short over the winter.
Wine bottle for scale.
Sorry but can you please tell me where you did the needle plucking. The strong bud on right in both the pictures is same. I am sure there is a difference but if you can please highlight, I will be really thankful as I want to learn about this.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Interesting Sifu [ Adair ]
thus far, all we have been working on is getting the buds to
move backwards on the tree,
The needles responded to shortening in September.
So far 2 inch needles are our shortest in general.
But we have hit 1/2 an inch and 1 inch.
Here we go again.
Good Day
Anthony
thus far, all we have been working on is getting the buds to
move backwards on the tree,
The needles responded to shortening in September.
So far 2 inch needles are our shortest in general.
But we have hit 1/2 an inch and 1 inch.
Here we go again.
Good Day
Anthony
Rather that try to take another picture, I made a drawing:
Starting from the top, that’s the “before” picture of the shoot, back in January. I want to shorten the internode. Normally, the new shoots would begin at the bud on the right.
The second picture shows “normal” needle pulling that’s done on the strong sections of the tree to weaken it. We”re not going to do that technique on this shoot. It would weaken it, but it wouldn’t shorten it, which is our goal.
The third picture shows how it looks after the “Special” needle pulling technique. The little short lines depict the sheaths of the needle pairs left behind when the needles are pulled. The difference is the needles are kept closer to the trunk.
The forth picture just shows where I will eventually make the “decandling” cut. I will cut not just the new growth, but also cut back to remove the portion of the stem where I pulled needles.
The last picture shows how the shoot looks today, and where I will be making the decandling cut. The bud at the end of the shoot has grown out and is making new needles. I will cut the new growth and part of the old growth off when I decandle in a month or so. This will force “needle” buds to appear between the needles of the ones I kept.
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