Cutting Pine Needles

[Bonsai Nut]

Cutting a needle weakens it, as well as the branch it is on. However it does not weaken it as dramatically as when you remove the needle entirely. So when might it be better to cut two pair of needles in half... versus removing one pair and leaving the other full length?

 

[Adair M]

Cutting needles in the spring will allow the sun to pierce thru, and stimulate the bud better.

In the summer, that bud will get off when it’s decandled. But, new summer candles will grow, and will also be stimulated by sunlight.

In fall, the cut needles will be pulled.

So, the tree is ugly for about 9 months.

 

[clem]

Cutting a needle weakens it, as well as the branch it is on. However it does not weaken it as dramatically as when you remove the needle entirely. So when might it be better to cut two pair of needles in half... versus removing one pair and leaving the other full length?

The french student of Urushibata explains that some needles are cut to weaken some part of a tree (for example the crown) and to make all the needles have the same size (aestetik goal for a small size tree). Adding, that the only issue is that you have a little scar at the top of the cut needles.

 

[Adair M]

The french student of Urushibata explains that some needles are cut to weaken some part of a tree (for example the crown) and to make all the needles have the same size (aestetik goal for a small size tree). Adding, that the only issue is that you have a little scar at the top of the cut needles.

It’s a temporary measure. And it means that the tree is still under development, and not yet balanced.

JBP tend to be more vigorous up near the apex. There are decandling techniques that are used to suppress the apex (and other strong areas) so that the needles in the apex will eventually be the same size as the rest of the tree.

If he has to resort to cutting needles on a regular basis, his technique may not be up to par.

 

[River's Edge]

Cutting a needle weakens it, as well as the branch it is on. However it does not weaken it as dramatically as when you remove the needle entirely. So when might it be better to cut two pair of needles in half... versus removing one pair and leaving the other full length?

Good Question. Perhaps one time is when the decision is made to reduce the rick associated with leaving one pair of needles as opposed to two shorter pair of needles. Second time could be if it is felt that more light will be allowed with shorter versus longer shadows.
Seems like it might be risky to admit one is involved with old school ideas.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Seems like it might be risky to admit one is involved with old school ideas.

I always thought of it as a balancing technique that is sometimes useful when part of the tree has short needles and part still has longer needles. The operative word here is "sometimes". But I had never really thought about it in depth.

 

[River's Edge]

I always thought of it as a balancing technique that is sometimes useful when part of the tree has short needles and part still has longer needles. The operative word here is "sometimes". But I had never really thought about it in depth.

Agreed, here is one situation that i have used it to help balancing and attaining shorter needles. The tree is a collected Shore Pine that i planted in a rock. ( Pinus Contorta ) There is a upside down cone shaped passage through the rock to the base, allowing the roots to populate the tray. I chipped and carved so the rock had feet for balancing and to allow the roots to spread out throughout the entire tray. The tree itself is under 6 inches in height.
Even though the natural needles are only 1 1/2 inch long , i desired shorter needles and also more buds in a very small space due to the scale of the planting.
The first time i used the needle cutting technique in combination with needle reduction the tree responded well with lots of new buds that came out with shorter needles. I then allowed the tree to recover for a season with just normal fall needle maintenance. This past year i reduced pairs of needles and cut length of needles. Here are two pictures, the first shows normal size of needle and number of buds before the first application. The second shows the ugly phase from the last application. Foliage is weaker, poorer color and condition but the buds appear healthy and are starting to swell.
However, i think it is clear to see the increase of branching and buds that occurred as a result of the first time. Currently the needles are cut to approx 1/2 inch in length which is 1/2 of the length at the beginning of last year. After this season i will resort to only needle reduction and cut back, having reached my goal of interior growth and more compact form.
I definitely agree that this is not wise to do on a regular basis , not likely required in most situations, and heaven forbid if it was done for show purposes The Shore Pine species is not as vigorous as JBP so a little riskier, as well as prone to red band needle cast so i am not reccomending this for others to try. But with a tree this old, this small. Clearly a tough little specimen. Single flush , very small candles!

 

[Vance Wood]

I have seen the needles on Adair's JBP and they don't need cutting.

 

[River's Edge]

I have seen the needles on Adair's JBP and they don't need cutting.

I agree.

 

[clem]

Another Japanese Shisho worked on a mugo pine : in spring 2016 (wiring + needles cut)

before



after :



same Shisho worked again on the same tree in spring 2018 :

before :



after :

 

[clem]

It’s a temporary measure. And it means that the tree is still under development, and not yet balanced.

.

yes, but everything is temporary in Bonsai, i think : when you do mekiri or metsumi or wiring, it is also a temporary measure.. Next year new buds & needles will grow..
On mature & finished JBP, cutting needles is also done, sometimes, if necessary, during exposition (aestetik measure)

 

[Adair M]

yes, but everything is temporary in Bonsai, i think : when you do mekiri or metsumi or wiring, it is also a temporary measure.. Next year new buds & needles will grow..
On mature & finished JBP, cutting needles is also done, sometimes, if necessary, during exposition (aestetik measure)

On mature & finished JBP, only minimal needle cutting should be necessary. If needles are too long throughout the tree, or the needle length varies all over, the tree is not yet ready for showing. (Not yet “finished”).

Here is my JBP as it looked when Vance saw it:



All the needles were about 3/4 inch long. There may have been a couple of tufts here and there that were newly popped backbuds that had full size (3 inch) needles. On the evening before the show, I cut them back to be the same size as all the others. There were maybe 2 or 3 such tufts consisting of 4 or 5 pairs each.


A year ago, I cut the tree back hard, and elected to not decandle. The needles grew long. But evenly throughout. I was not planning on showing it, but I decided to show it with long needles at the Winter Silohette Show last December:





Why show it with long needles? I don’t know, I just thought it looked nice!

I’m going to go thru it and thin it, but probably not cut any needles. I’ll decandle it this summer, and pull the long needles in the fall.

 

[clem]

Your pine is very nice ! And your needles were very short. Did you make mekiri on your pine to get those very short needles ? Do you usually have every year those short needles on your pine ?

Your pine with the longer needles was nice too, maybe some people would have cut the longest needles during exposition, who knows ? It is what happened to the big JBP on the post #16.

 

[Adair M]

Clem, I am not familiar with the Japanese words you are using.

I get short needles by cutting off the spring growth in early to mid summer. JBP produce a second flush of growth, which will have shorter needles.

I normally do this every summer. Except about every 5 years, I cut back on the branches. Then let the needles grow long. This gives the tree a chance to grow lots of roots. Then, I’ll start the decandling cycle all over again.

 

[clem]

ok, what you do it is Mekiri. Metsumi is pinching growing candles in spring. Nakamekiri is what you do every 5 years : cutting back on branches.
A japanese Bonsai pro who wrote a book on black pines, Kyozuke GUN, say that mekiri should be done every 2 years maximum to not weaken the tree but it seems that you succeed doing this mekiri every year for 5 years.

 

[River's Edge]

Clem, I am not familiar with the Japanese words you are using.

I get short needles by cutting off the spring growth in early to mid summer. JBP produce a second flush of growth, which will have shorter needles.

I normally do this every summer. Except about every 5 years, I cut back on the branches. Then let the needles grow long. This gives the tree a chance to grow lots of roots. Then, I’ll start the decandling cycle all over again.

Hi Adair, Just hoping to avoid some confusion for the readers.
Initially this topic posed the question in regard to pines generally, not specifically JBP. I am hoping that the readers distinguish between specific techniques for multi flush pines ( JBP) and other types of pines that are not so vigorous. For example my comment was with respect to Pinus Contorta ( Shore Pine ) . Others have mentioned Scot's Pine and Mugo Pine.
Application of these specific multi-flush techniques to single flush, less vigorous species will often kill the tree.
Every year for five years in a row means the tree has been kept in optimum health and no set backs have occurred. It is also a reflection of your training level and experience. I know you are aware of these factors, just wanted to be sure the other readers were as well.

 

[robert gardner]

I have grown several Ponderosa Pines from seeds. They are now 4 years old, very contorta and about 6 inches tall.
The trees are very healthy green and putting on strong candles. I have needle pruned them for about two years now
and so far no new smaller needles. They all are putting on awesome growth.

 

[River's Edge]

I have grown several Ponderosa Pines from seeds. They are now 4 years old, very contorta and about 6 inches tall.
The trees are very healthy green and putting on strong candles. I have needle pruned them for about two years now
and so far no new smaller needles. They all are putting on awesome growth.

Ponderosa Pine are generally considered a difficult species to create smaller needles. Many bonsai artists have grafted JBP or Scots Pine onto Ponderosa for that reason. They are noted for quality trunks and bark though.

 

[Adair M]

Hi Adair, Just hoping to avoid some confusion for the readers.
Initially this topic posed the question in regard to pines generally, not specifically JBP. I am hoping that the readers distinguish between specific techniques for multi flush pines ( JBP) and other types of pines that are not so vigorous. For example my comment was with respect to Pinus Contorta ( Shore Pine ) . Others have mentioned Scot's Pine and Mugo Pine.
Application of these specific multi-flush techniques to single flush, less vigorous species will often kill the tree.
Every year for five years in a row means the tree has been kept in optimum health and no set backs have occurred. It is also a reflection of your training level and experience. I know you are aware of these factors, just wanted to be sure the other readers were as well.

Very true, Frank!

In general, I am opposed to cutting needles. On any pine. Of course, there can be exceptions.

In fact, I had this little tree recently styled by Daisaku Nomoto:



And after he had wired it, he cut the needles in half to create the image you see above. The needles were twice as long as you see there. His reasoning was the tree was going to get decandled this summer, and he wanted full sunlight to stimulate budding.

 

[River's Edge]

Very true, Frank!

In general, I am opposed to cutting needles. On any pine. Of course, there can be exceptions.

In fact, I had this little tree recently styled by Daisaku Nomoto:

View attachment 231660

And after he had wired it, he cut the needles in half to create the image you see above. The needles were twice as long as you see there. His reasoning was the tree was going to get decandled this summer, and he wanted full sunlight to stimulate budding.

Neat!

Nice Pine above, we are both very fortunate to have the number of opportunities with both Boon and Daisaku at times, his annual visits have provided additional benefit to the intensives.