Frozen Top Soil Conifers. Help needed.

Frozentreehugger

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First map that comes up under search USDA plant zones Stockholm Sweden . Clearly shows Stockholm is usda zone 6 Which means average annual min winter temp is .18c to -23c. Notice the usda map is American based therefore its base of reference if in F every 10 degrees of F changes one complete zone . If you do some research the min temp is not the complete story . Min winter temp max summer temp and humidity are the major factors that are used to distinguish a zone . There are other minor factors . Point is it is not just winter min I think a safe rule of thumb is to plan for 1/2 zone colder as a safety margin . This is average temp not the possible freak storm colder than it has been in 40 years
 

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HorseloverFat

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I would agree that Stockholm probably in the USDA 7 range looking at temp profiles (https://weatherspark.com/y/84156/Average-Weather-in-Stockholm-Sweden-Year-Round). As far as I know, the USDA looks at long-term averages and then the minimum temperature reached in winter. The scale developed to describe which plants could be grown outside where, afaik. WHich would put stockholm in a similar range as where I live. Thank the warm atlantic current.

This is what I do. Maybe something to watch?
Knoxville, TN, Is ALSO USDA, 7a..

So is Richmond, VA...

Here they are.... Compared with Stockholm!

It's different, I'm tellin' ya!

🤣🤣🤣

 

HorseloverFat

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I see you Americans have some really ugly weather in some of the states 💨🌬️❄️😶‍🌫️ 🥶🥶
How are you holdin up ??
Hehe! Thanks... Just a lil Blizzard.

I got less snow than expected... But it was colder than anticipated.

IMG_20221225_214913.jpg

THIS is how my streets will look, until the thaw.
IMG_20221225_214615.jpg
🤓
 

Deep Sea Diver

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I would agree that Stockholm probably in the USDA 7 range looking at temp profiles (https://weatherspark.com/y/84156/Average-Weather-in-Stockholm-Sweden-Year-Round). As far as I know, the USDA looks at long-term averages and then the minimum temperature reached in winter. The scale developed to describe which plants could be grown outside where, afaik. WHich would put stockholm in a similar range as where I live. Thank the warm atlantic current.

This is what I do. Maybe something to watch?

Nice discussion!

The above reference shows is a really good basic wintering over video by @leatherback !

In it Jelle discusses and shows his wintering over methods for quite a number of species (sans azalea, but does mention olives). I liked his example showing a sheltered location.

One of the important points, imho, is in his word track mentioning different species require different winter treatment. That’s key for new bonsai hobbyists.

Definitely a good starting place for folks just beginning in bonsai.

I guess a couple thoughts I would add are.

a. There are more things when wintering over to be concerned about then frost. Some of these were briefly mentioned in the video. (Sun / wind)

b. Finally, just because a tree survives the winter doesn’t mean the tree will be in shape to withstand the rigors of bonsai practice in the new year.

Cheers
DSD sends
 

leatherback

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If you do some research the min temp is not the complete story . Min winter temp max summer temp and humidity are the major factors that are used to distinguish a zone . There are other minor factors . Point is it is not just winter min
Source please?

The publication document states it is about average winter minima.

1672214513334.png
 

Frozentreehugger

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Source please?

The publication document states it is about average winter minima.
Yes the usda hardiness zone map clearly states it’s based on minimum average winter temp . Honestly I forget where I read that other factors contribute . I’ll have to look . I think it was info on reasons why the borders of zones . Have changes . It’s been a while . There is also a heat zone map based on summer temp . Also interesting that your map states 7a fir Stockholm and the first one that popped up for me . States 6 supposed to be based on same usda info 🤷‍♂️
 

Frozentreehugger

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Yes the usda hardiness zone map clearly states it’s based on minimum average winter temp . Honestly I forget where I read that other factors contribute . I’ll have to look . I think it was info on reasons why the borders of zones . Have changes . It’s been a while . There is also a heat zone map based on summer temp . Also interesting that your map states 7a fir Stockholm and the first one that popped up for me . States 6 supposed to be based on same usda info 🤷‍♂️
Pretty confident my info came from here . Environment Canada site . Talking about hardiness zones . And the factors that effect them . But the usda site . States min avearage winter temp is the determining factor
 

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HorseloverFat

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If we are trying to term a NON-us location, with USda zone ..

Don't you think it should reassemble a corresponding zone 7a IN the US....

I can't find any 7a's in North America that match the ramp... Or EVEN The lows..
 

HorseloverFat

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Ok... Found a few more...

It seems Dayton Nevada ALMOST lines up...

What I'm saying is.... I had to compare about 40 locations that are 7a... To find one that matches...(but all those locations... Matched EACH OTHER)

But it DOES match.

So I WAS wrong...

I just feel, OP, if you consider yourself 7a, you will have more problems than if you considered yourself 6b.

And yes, USDA is termed by minimum average.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Hmm…. imho USDA Zones have become out of alignment with reality and it’s high time to update these. This extends beyond mere microclimate alterations to wide sweeping climatic alterations over the past decade across the world.

But don’t hold your breath as the last change was 2012 and the ones before were 1990 and 1960! (Apparently US Dept of Agriculture is thinking similarly)

Yet the present map is at least a basic starting point.

Sorry for the birdwalk 😉

cheers
DSD sends
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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The USDA zone maps are a useful approximation, even if the data they are based upon has rapidly become out of date. Part of the usefulness is that "everybody uses it". @HorseloverFat the problem with the AHS map is I have never seen it in my casual reading. Almost universally plant articles, horticulture articles and science articles reference USDA zone maps, rarely do I see mention of AHS. So what good is the alternate if it is not readily available. USDA is a useful approximation. Its not perfect, but it is useful.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Actually, when I owned the blueberry farm (a brief 5 year foray into hard work) the Ag agents used "Growing Degree Days" as the main descriptor of where we were in the growing season. It measured the accumulation a time at or above a set temperature. For example blueberries would start blooming at some number days base 50F. Meaning significant growth only happened above 50F, and the AgDept weather stations would report the progress for that location at the different base temperatures. One could then track the total accumulated time above a chosen set temperature at a given location. Base 40 F, base 50 F, base 60 F, were the charts made available in Michigan. They'd be updated daily from early spring through to hard freeze in November. Grape growers used base 60 F to time fruit ripening.

Apple and most fruit varieties in wholesale catalogs will have degree day listings for flowering and fruit ripening or harvest if they are serious about catering to real farmers and commercial orchards.

These degree days were also very useful in predicting when pests would emerge and timing reapplication intervals for pesticide spraying. The goal was to spray to kill adults, then reapply timed to kill juveniles that hatched from eggs missed by the initial spray. The goal is to spray just before the next generation is able to lay eggs. This can be once every two or three weeks in cool weather or once every three days in hot weather. The degree day tables have been developed for economic pests like the apple coddling moth, the spotted wing fruit fly (SWD) and the blueberry maggot. They are each at different temperature-day accumulation rates for predicting best timing of spray application.

So farming has become sophisticated around pest control, and measuring impact of climate. USDA cold hardiness zones are only part of the picture.

There is not enough money in bonsai for a USDA specialty group, though the landscape nursery industry is pretty closely related to what we do as far as bulking trees up with field growing.
 

Frozentreehugger

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Hmm…. imho USDA Zones have become out of alignment with reality and it’s high time to update these. This extends beyond mere microclimate alterations to wide sweeping climatic alterations over the past decade across the world.

But don’t hold your breath as the last change was 2012 and the ones before were 1990 and 1960! (Apparently US Dept of Agriculture is thinking similarly)

Yet the present map is at least a basic starting point.

Sorry for the birdwalk 😉

cheers
DSD sends
Actually, when I owned the blueberry farm (a brief 5 year foray into hard work) the Ag agents used "Growing Degree Days" as the main descriptor of where we were in the growing season. It measured the accumulation a time at or above a set temperature. For example blueberries would start blooming at some number days base 50F. Meaning significant growth only happened above 50F, and the AgDept weather stations would report the progress for that location at the different base temperatures. One could then track the total accumulated time above a chosen set temperature at a given location. Base 40 F, base 50 F, base 60 F, were the charts made available in Michigan. They'd be updated daily from early spring through to hard freeze in November. Grape growers used base 60 F to time fruit ripening.

Apple and most fruit varieties in wholesale catalogs will have degree day listings for flowering and fruit ripening or harvest if they are serious about catering to real farmers and commercial orchards.

These degree days were also very useful in predicting when pests would emerge and timing reapplication intervals for pesticide spraying. The goal was to spray to kill adults, then reapply timed to kill juveniles that hatched from eggs missed by the initial spray. The goal is to spray just before the next generation is able to lay eggs. This can be once every two or three weeks in cool weather or once every three days in hot weather. The degree day tables have been developed for economic pests like the apple coddling moth, the spotted wing fruit fly (SWD) and the blueberry maggot. They are each at different temperature-day accumulation rates for predicting best timing of spray application.

So farming has become sophisticated around pest control, and measuring impact of climate. USDA cold hardiness zones are only part of the picture.

There is not enough money in bonsai for a USDA specialty group, though the landscape nursery industry is pretty closely related to what we do as far as bulking trees up with field growing.
When the Canadian government took the existing usda hardiness zones . And added other variables. See my post above . To ad they said make a more accurate map . They did not give a rats ass . About bonsai or the shrubs and trees in your yard . It’s all about farm crops . As you said . From manipulation of plant genetics to weather to pests and diseases . Fertilization hydration . Modern farming is incredible scientific . The nursery teee industry is a spin off industry that gains from some of this knowledge . At best
 

Paradox

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Agreed!

AHS is far superior, to the CURRENT USDA rating, in my opinion.

Not fair to compare them as its apples and oranges. They are different ratings for different things.
The USDA zone map is for winter hardiness.

The AHS is for summer temperatures

Both are useful to know imo which is why I include both numbers in my profile
 

Runstenen

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I would agree that Stockholm probably in the USDA 7 range looking at temp profiles (https://weatherspark.com/y/84156/Average-Weather-in-Stockholm-Sweden-Year-Round). As far as I know, the USDA looks at long-term averages and then the minimum temperature reached in winter. The scale developed to describe which plants could be grown outside where, afaik. WHich would put stockholm in a similar range as where I live. Thank the warm atlantic current.

This is what I do. Maybe something to watch?
Great info. Im pretty sure ive watched that and that it was helpful. Will watch again though !!!
 
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