How far have you developed a tree before digging

Spdyracer

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Had a couple trees I cut the tops off in my woods to see what would happen. First one is a large buckeye and the second is still yet to be identified. Instead of digging them up I plan on leaving them for the summer. The buckeye I'm hoping will get a few new shoots and take off. The second one I cut the top off and was going to try air layering it to make a cascade tree out of the large curve in it. Of course that depends on what it ends up being. I figured worse case is I cut the top no real harm. The buckeye may die and be the end of that. This got me wandering how far have you developed a tree before finally digging it up. The buckeye I would like to work on the shoots and develop another leader if they come out. As big as it is I may need to let that leader grow a few years before cutting it and hopefully creating another new leader. Would it be common to leave it for a few years wile doing that or do most people dig it up before you would get that far? The other I would air layer then cut off when ready some time this summer. Just curious what people do or have done.

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sorce

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I haven't....or better....can't, read most of what you typed.....

But F yeah!

How many times have I seen.....

I dug this here tree and put it in the ground!

Then WTF did you dig it for !?

I'm with you!

Sorce
 

Spdyracer

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I haven't....or better....can't, read most of what you typed.....

But F yeah!

How many times have I seen.....

I dug this here tree and put it in the ground!

Then WTF did you dig it for !?

I'm with you!

Sorce
Sorry didn't think I was confusing but maybe I was. Just asking how far have people developed a tree in the woods, along a fence, in a field or where ever they collected it. Does anyone do this or do you just chop and dig.
 

sorce

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Sorry didn't think I was confusing but maybe I was. Just asking how far have people developed a tree in the woods, along a fence, in a field or where ever they collected it. Does anyone do this or do you just chop and dig.

My drunk ass must be confusing!

I'm with this....design to perfection then dig....
Why not...? (couple valid answers..)

But if you can...... I think you would be corn stupid not to make the tree in the woods!

I'm with you!

Sorce
 

sorce

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It doesn't make sense does it!?

I am heavily intoxicated......

Your post makes perfect sense!

Sorce
 

crust

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I once trimmed pines along a ditch for years only to have the mowed off by a drunken farmer. A Norbilly from Duluth had some super choice larch stump-dogs he was working ditch-side only to come back spring to find them sprayed and dead. A Mn bonzo dork was traveling to Wyoming yearly and root pruning a massive twistiod only to return the following year to find a hole.
 

sorce

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I once trimmed pines along a ditch for years only to have the mowed off by a drunken farmer. A Norbilly from Duluth had some super choice larch stump-dogs he was working ditch-side only to come back spring to find them sprayed and dead. A Mn bonzo dork was traveling to Wyoming yearly and root pruning a massive twistiod only to return the following year to find a hole.

Trees disappear on me too!

Good point!

Sorce
 

rockm

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Had a couple trees I cut the tops off in my woods to see what would happen. First one is a large buckeye and the second is still yet to be identified. Instead of digging them up I plan on leaving them for the summer. The buckeye I'm hoping will get a few new shoots and take off. The second one I cut the top off and was going to try air layering it to make a cascade tree out of the large curve in it. Of course that depends on what it ends up being. I figured worse case is I cut the top no real harm. The buckeye may die and be the end of that. This got me wandering how far have you developed a tree before finally digging it up. The buckeye I would like to work on the shoots and develop another leader if they come out. As big as it is I may need to let that leader grow a few years before cutting it and hopefully creating another new leader. Would it be common to leave it for a few years wile doing that or do most people dig it up before you would get that far? The other I would air layer then cut off when ready some time this summer. Just curious what people do or have done.

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Not a great idea and it's not a common idea among experienced collectors.

When you remove the entire top of the tree, you remove the advantage the tree had over stuff growing near it and its ability to feed the roots. The tree has been severely compromised and can be in danger of being shaded out by its neighbors.

You may, or may not, get strong shoots from the stump. It's a crap shoot.

I've tried doing this with a number of species in the woods in hopes of getting a jump start on a new apex. Haven't had much luck. Most of the trees I did this with threw a few shoots that died off eventually. With wild deciduous trees in the woods, it's best just to take them all in one shot.

The advice about taking them before they're damaged or killed by something else is also on point. A tree that's been hacked back or marked for future collection can draw unwanted attention from humans.

The big buckeye you've chopped also has severe inverse taper that cannot be corrected. I understand wanting to hang onto that big scar, but in keeping it, the final image of the tree as it becomes a bonsai will look plain odd and visually extremely top heavy.
 
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Spdyracer

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Not a great idea and it's not a common idea among experienced collectors.

When you remove the entire top of the tree, you remove the advantage the tree had over stuff growing near it and its ability to feed the roots. The tree has been severely compromised and can be in danger of being shaded out by its neighbors.

You may, or may not, get strong shoots from the stump. It's a crap shoot.

I've tried doing this with a number of species in the woods in hopes of getting a jump start on a new apex. Haven't had much luck. Most of the trees I did this with threw a few shoots that died off eventually. With wild deciduous trees in the woods, it's best just to take them all in one shot.

The advice about taking them before they're damaged or killed by something else is also on point. A tree that's been hacked back or marked for future collection can draw unwanted attention from humans.

The big buckeye you've chopped also has severe inverse taper that cannot be corrected. I understand wanting to hang onto that big scar, but in keeping it, the final image of the tree as it becomes a bonsai will look plain odd and visually extremely top heavy.
Well I guess that answers my question pretty well. Makes a lot of sense what you said and the disadvantages of doing this. Being the woods on my land I have no worry about someone else coming along and doing anything to it. The only thing I would have to worry about would be deer or other critters but don't think they would mess with it. It's pretty open around it so hopefully getting blocked out won't be such a problem. Say I leave the buckeye for now and it does grow some new shoots and I do decide to keep it when would be a good time to dig it. Would late fall early winter be good or early spring?
 

rockm

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I'd wait at least a year, or more. You are presumably leaving it in the ground to grow out new leaders, etc. Taking it in the fall, winter or next spring would kind of make leaving it there pointless. That's hardly enough time for much of anything. Additionally, removing it that quickly would probably weaken it even further.

If you're set on removing it that soon, might as well dig it out now.

This is part of the problem with leaving material at the site. You have chopped off a major portion of its life support system, but have asked it to carry on regardless. It will take at least a couple of years for it to make any semblance of recovery or to put on meaningful growth. Five would be more like it, more for a tree this size to push a new leader that might even come close to matching the original trunk's diameter.
 

GrimLore

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It's pretty open around it so hopefully getting blocked out won't be such a problem.

How tall was it? Reason I ask is it will get far less light at the chopped height. Being there was no root reduction will be a disadvantage too... You went this far, scoop it out properly and put it in a grow container. It will really give you a better chance of survival...

Grimmy
 

rockm

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Well I guess that answers my question pretty well. Makes a lot of sense what you said and the disadvantages of doing this. Being the woods on my land I have no worry about someone else coming along and doing anything to it. The only thing I would have to worry about would be deer or other critters but don't think they would mess with it. It's pretty open around it so hopefully getting blocked out won't be such a problem. Say I leave the buckeye for now and it does grow some new shoots and I do decide to keep it when would be a good time to dig it. Would late fall early winter be good or early spring?
Deer love new shoots on trees. Here in N.Va., we are infested with deer. They eat EVERYTHING below four feet, trees, shrubs, grass, especially fresh twigs on trees. The lowest three feet of the forest around here is completely bare from the browsing. So yeah, deer will mess with it.

Also by shaded out, I don't mean directly over the tree. I mean bigger and huge trees within 100 yards or so with their overhanging canopy. This tree looked apparently tall enough to have grown itself up high enough not to have had to compete with smaller stuff. Now it has to and at a disadvantage.
 

Spdyracer

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How tall was it? Reason I ask is it will get far less light at the chopped height. Being there was no root reduction will be a disadvantage too... You went this far, scoop it out properly and put it in a grow container. It will really give you a better chance of survival...

Grimmy
I'd say about 15-20 foot. It was a shorter tree than a lot around it but still tall. Well crap now you all have me worried about it. Didn't really think about the deer eating it I was more worried about them rubbing on it. I was thinking having all the roots would help it but sounds like it wouldn't be. I guess live and learn, making noob mistakes. Guess I'll dig it up and pot it this weekend.
 

Spdyracer

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I'd wait at least a year, or more. You are presumably leaving it in the ground to grow out new leaders, etc. Taking it in the fall, winter or next spring would kind of make leaving it there pointless. That's hardly enough time for much of anything. Additionally, removing it that quickly would probably weaken it even further.

If you're set on removing it that soon, might as well dig it out now.

This is part of the problem with leaving material at the site. You have chopped off a major portion of its life support system, but have asked it to carry on regardless. It will take at least a couple of years for it to make any semblance of recovery or to put on meaningful growth. Five would be more like it, more for a tree this size to push a new leader that might even come close to matching the original trunk's diameter.
Well I was going to leave it but after what you said I thought I better dig it at the best time in the future which sounds like right now. Would have like to have left it for a few years but from what I have learned now thats a bad idea to do so I'll dig and pot it this weekend.
 

Waltron

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im working about 20 trees in various places right now, some have been for 3 growing seasons, some 2 seasons, some 1 season, and some I just found last week. probably find more this week.
 

Spdyracer

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im working about 20 trees in various places right now, some have been for 3 growing seasons, some 2 seasons, some 1 season, and some I just found last week. probably find more this week.
Is that working for you? Sounds like it might be. Have you dealt with any of the problems that have been brought up if so how did you deal with them?
 
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Waltron

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had a really nice horn beam get lost becasue the dang farmer came in and cleared out the drainage creek, but I finally found the tree covered up with downed trees, I sawed them up the other trees out of the way of it, I was going to collect it this year but now it will be a later year. some of the trees im just working the roots trying to get rid of a tap root on a real nice piece, to oaks in particular, and really its just a lot of research on my end. I go in do the roots and put in peat moss, and decayed bark from the woods around my trench and sprinkle fertilizer on them, some times cut a lane for them to receive more light, or maybe some pesticides. basically adds to my collection and research while limiting the necessary care and overwintering, and if I decide later its not worth collecting oh well. also helps to see how species im not familiar with respond to training and chopping and what not.
 

rockm

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I'm confused. If you're working the roots on site, then chopping the top is extremely counterproductive if you're trying to regenerate a partial root system, as more top growth speeds root development and vice versa. Mess with one and the other slows down.

You CAN partially reduce a root mass on site--cutting only halfway around the root mass five to eight inches out from the trunk, but leaving the tree unchopped so it can regenerate a tighter root mass closer to the trunk. This has been done for some time for larger trees that might be sensitive to all-out collection (but I haven't yet met a deciduous species in my area yet that can't be collected all at once).

Fertilizer on cut roots doesn't do anything for the tree, as thicker roots can't absorb fertilizer. Cut thick roots can't do much of anything to absorb nutrients until after feeder roots regenerate. Sprinkling fertilizer on intact feeder roots on the uncut side doesn't make any sense either, as you're trying to induce root growth on the cut side. Strengthening the growing side makes the tree favor the uncut side, as that is where it's finding the most resources....

One technique that will help you with the "partial collection" is putting the end of cut roots into a plastic bag stuffed with moist long-fibered sphagnum most (not peat). Make sure the bag won't collect water and leave it partially buried (animals can be a problem with this). This will accelerate new root production.
 

Waltron

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I'm confused. If you're working the roots on site, then chopping the top is extremely counterproductive if you're trying to regenerate a partial root system, as more top growth speeds root development and vice versa. Mess with one and the other slows down.

You CAN partially reduce a root mass on site--cutting only halfway around the root mass five to eight inches out from the trunk, but leaving the tree unchopped so it can regenerate a tighter root mass closer to the trunk. This has been done for some time for larger trees that might be sensitive to all-out collection (but I haven't yet met a deciduous species in my area yet that can't be collected all at once).

Fertilizer on cut roots doesn't do anything for the tree, as thicker roots can't absorb fertilizer. Cut thick roots can't do much of anything to absorb nutrients until after feeder roots regenerate. Sprinkling fertilizer on intact feeder roots on the uncut side doesn't make any sense either, as you're trying to induce root growth on the cut side. Strengthening the growing side makes the tree favor the uncut side, as that is where it's finding the most resources....

One technique that will help you with the "partial collection" is putting the end of cut roots into a plastic bag stuffed with moist long-fibered sphagnum most (not peat). Make sure the bag won't collect water and leave it partially buried (animals can be a problem with this). This will accelerate new root production.


well yea you make good points, like i said i have over 20 trees I keep watch on throughout the year each tree is unique and gets a different method, if i cut the top i dont touch the roots, some i cut a half circle and slight trimming... some I cut a full circle and chop, one oak ive been working for 3 years is stunted so it never had to be chopped i did one side of the roots and dug down to the tap root, cut it with a knife, applied root gel and packed with sphagnum, had lots of new top growth on that side.. second year I just did the other half circle about 10 inches from the trunk, this year I just did some light pruning so far.. debating on goin in and wacking the tap... but thinking i might just do that upon collection. or maybe even get in there like an archaeologist and recover the whole tap I dont know.. but it def has more roots higher up on the trunk, havent done the plastic bag method but it does make sense..., and with the fert.. I use granular around the circle if i trench... id disagree and say that it does help the new roots that will form as a result of the trench and back fill, especially if i were to add bonsai soil or the rotted mulch.
 
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