If You Are Serious About Bonsai

[cantstopsmilin]

"Of course, if you've spent next to nothging, there is virtually no incentive to learn how to protect your worthless investment. "

I disagree, price will definitely make you want to look after your bonsai more, but if all you can afford is 5$ trees, then price doesn't make a difference, you could just as easily kill your 500 dollar tree as your 5 dollar tree, and ya you'd freak out about losing money, but if both were dying and you cared about the tree itself, not the price, then you would do what you can to save it, even if it was only 5 dollars. If i invested a lot of time into a 5$ dollar tree, and i'd grown attatched to it, or if it was all i had, or i just really liked the tree, i don't think price would make a difference whether or not i try and save it, or care about it. I would jsut be more depressed when my 500$ tree dies because it is more of a waste of money. i mean, ya, price can make a difference, and i guess what i'm trying to say is thateven if a tree is, or was, only 5$ that doesn't mean it is worthless to you, there is more to a tree than its price.

 

[Attila Soos]

Beautiful examples, Will.
I can tell you though that in my earlier days I crawled in every plant nursery in the Los Angeles area, and don't remember seing those wonderful mughos here under $5 (mind you that mughos don't do well in this area). And I was like a pest, people cringed when they saw me pull out every plant from their pots. I was doing my tours every weekend, spending my time crawling on all fours.

But I've seen similar material in bonsai nurseries for around $75. Mostly olives (olives are in this area like mughos in your area - abundant and with fat little trunks).

I guess every area has its advantages, you are lucky to have those in your are so cheap.

 

[Rick Moquin]

"Of course, if you've spent next to nothging, there is virtually no incentive to learn how to protect your worthless investment. "

I disagree, price will definitely make you want to look after your bonsai more, but if all you can afford is 5$ trees, then price doesn't make a difference, you could just as easily kill your 500 dollar tree as your 5 dollar tree, and ya you'd freak out about losing money, but if both were dying and you cared about the tree itself, not the price, then you would do what you can to save it, even if it was only 5 dollars. If i invested a lot of time into a 5$ dollar tree, and i'd grown attatched to it, or if it was all i had, or i just really liked the tree, i don't think price would make a difference whether or not i try and save it, or care about it. I would jsut be more depressed when my 500$ tree dies because it is more of a waste of money. i mean, ya, price can make a difference, and i guess what i'm trying to say is thateven if a tree is, or was, only 5$ that doesn't mean it is worthless to you, there is more to a tree than its price.

Sorry need to jump in the ring here.

Price has nothing to do nor quality for that matter if one is practicing bonsai for all the right reasons.

To say that we will devote more time to a $500 tree vice a $5 one is complete hogwash.

Here is a quote from someone who inspires me:

At least for me, final result is not the destination, but I enjoy the processing journey. Each small shoot every day is a gifted spirit and hope to make my dream come true...believe me, that's the reason why all the bonsai people live very long because we have hope..strong hope !

What do you mean by world class bonsai ? We should honor every tree with true and honest love. Every tree has its own personality and character; and our job as a bonsai artist is to explore its character, to tell the roman of its life journey, to bring out its majesty ! You can not be unhappy because one of your children become a fireman and not a doctor.

 

[JasonG]

After skimming through this topic I see that there are a lot of different points of view on the subject.

First I would like to start with what Mr. Warren said that started this whole thing...... BRAVO!!!!!! What he has to say is the absolute truth and he hit the nail on the head. American bonsai will never be considered as elite as long as we are playing with crap nursery material. There is the very rare instance or finding a diamond in the rough in a nursery, but that is like hitting the lottery as mentioned earlier. For example, Walter Pall is the most active "master" on the internet and almost everyone loves his trees. He has well over 500 show quality trees and how many came from nursery stock??? I think 1 juniper he got from a nursery, everything else is yamadori.

With nursery stock you are able to learn on and hone skills, try new things and learn through trial and error. But in 95% of the cases that is all they are good for... How does that old saying go...."If you polish a turd it is still a turd"? Going to Home Depot or any of the box stores is a complete waste of time looking for potential bonsai.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you can find an ok tree at a normal landscape nursery that could be considered possible bonsai stock. But that is a rarity and not the norm. If all one does is get trees from a nursery then one will never have a "good" or above average bonsai collection.

Collected material, yamadori is where it is at. With yamadori you get age and charcater that you simply can not find in nursery stock. With good yamadori comes age (older than most humans for a young tree and several hundered to 1000 yr old), bark, contorted trunks and deadwood that can not be matched by man. I am surprised no one has hit on deadwood yet in this conversation. Deadwood is a major selling factor and one of the most desirable aspects of yamadori.

Contrary to popular belief (Will ) price plays a huge part in quality of stock. Come to Oregon Bonsai sometime and I will show you collected trees that cost $200 (for smaller less expensive) all the way up to $15,000.00 for med to large trees. The more expensive trees will be buying you big trunks with bark that is 100's of years old, super twisted gnarly trunks, and without a doubt future master pieces. People who spend on the upper end will have masters that take care of thier collections a few times a year.

It is a known fact that the fastest way to the best bonsai is through collected material. Collected material will not be found for sale for $5.00 a tree. Even a $5.00 nursery tree will never make a good bonsai, no one has ever posted one yet.

When I started bonsai less than 5yrs ago I was a nursery crawler and a sitck in pot guy. In the past 3 years I have "Seen the light" and now know that collected material is the fastest, best way to getting a killer collection of bonsai that will be respected by many. In less than 5 yrs I now have 5+ world class trees in my collection..... all through yamadori. Couldn't have done that with nursery material, infact no one can.

Recently I came across a once in a lifetime find.... a nursery that is in the middle of nowhere and found some very good trees so I bought a ton of them. Sold most right away but kept a few jewels. Infact one I sold is going to be a demo tree for Walter Pall at the PNBCA convention in Spokane Washington Sept. 2008.This type of find is almost once in a lifetime The problem with these trees (as with all nursery material) is most of the trees have been in a pot for 25 yrs and will be an absolute nightmare to work the roots down so it fits in a bonsai pot. THis may take several years and is it worth it??

Yamadori is leaps and bounds ahead of any nursery material hands down. The most valuable trees are collected, the best trees in the world are collected and any master on the planet would make a better tree out of yamadori vs. nursery material.


I am very glad that Peter said what he said. Once Ameicans open thier eyes and see it too then maybe American Bonsai will gain some respect in Japan and Europe.......

Jason

 

[Attila Soos]

"Of course, if you've spent next to nothging, there is virtually no incentive to learn how to protect your worthless investment. "

I disagree, price will definitely make you want to look after your bonsai more, but if all you can afford is 5$ trees, then price doesn't make a difference, you could just as easily kill your 500 dollar tree as your 5 dollar tree, and ya you'd freak out about losing money, but if both were dying and you cared about the tree itself, not the price, then you would do what you can to save it, even if it was only 5 dollars. If i invested a lot of time into a 5$ dollar tree, and i'd grown attatched to it, or if it was all i had, or i just really liked the tree, i don't think price would make a difference whether or not i try and save it, or care about it. I would jsut be more depressed when my 500$ tree dies because it is more of a waste of money. i mean, ya, price can make a difference, and i guess what i'm trying to say is thateven if a tree is, or was, only 5$ that doesn't mean it is worthless to you, there is more to a tree than its price.

I grow bonsai for the love of trees, not for their price. But I tend to pay more attention to keep alive an ancient collected juniper than a seedling that I can replace any time. Incidentally the ancient juniper is very rare and valuable but the seedling is not really. If those junipers were very cheap and available everywhere, I would probably not worry too much about losing a few every year. "What the heck, I can buy another one for $5 every year, just like cut flowers: keep it on your TV for a week and then throw them out".
I love flowers, but I don't mind throwing them out every week and buy new ones.

 

[Smoke]

After skimming through this topic I see that there are a lot of different points of view on the subject.

First I would like to start with what Mr. Warren said that started this whole thing...... BRAVO!!!!!! What he has to say is the absolute truth and he hit the nail on the head. American bonsai will never be considered as elite as long as we are playing with crap nursery material. There is the very rare instance or finding a diamond in the rough in a nursery, but that is like hitting the lottery as mentioned earlier. For example, Walter Pall is the most active "master" on the internet and almost everyone loves his trees. He has well over 500 show quality trees and how many came from nursery stock??? I think 1 juniper he got from a nursery, everything else is yamadori.

With nursery stock you are able to learn on and hone skills, try new things and learn through trial and error. But in 95% of the cases that is all they are good for... How does that old saying go...."If you polish a turd it is still a turd"? Going to Home Depot or any of the box stores is a complete waste of time looking for potential bonsai.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you can find an ok tree at a normal landscape nursery that could be considered possible bonsai stock. But that is a rarity and not the norm. If all one does is get trees from a nursery then one will never have a "good" or above average bonsai collection.

Collected material, yamadori is where it is at. With yamadori you get age and charcater that you simply can not find in nursery stock. With good yamadori comes age (older than most humans for a young tree and several hundered to 1000 yr old), bark, contorted trunks and deadwood that can not be matched by man. I am surprised no one has hit on deadwood yet in this conversation. Deadwood is a major selling factor and one of the most desirable aspects of yamadori.

Contrary to popular belief (Will ) price plays a huge part in quality of stock. Come to Oregon Bonsai sometime and I will show you collected trees that cost $200 (for smaller less expensive) all the way up to $15,000.00 for med to large trees. The more expensive trees will be buying you big trunks with bark that is 100's of years old, super twisted gnarly trunks, and without a doubt future master pieces. People who spend on the upper end will have masters that take care of thier collections a few times a year.

It is a known fact that the fastest way to the best bonsai is through collected material. Collected material will not be found for sale for $5.00 a tree. Even a $5.00 nursery tree will never make a good bonsai, no one has ever posted one yet.

When I started bonsai less than 5yrs ago I was a nursery crawler and a sitck in pot guy. In the past 3 years I have "Seen the light" and now know that collected material is the fastest, best way to getting a killer collection of bonsai that will be respected by many. In less than 5 yrs I now have 5+ world class trees in my collection..... all through yamadori. Couldn't have done that with nursery material, infact no one can.

Recently I came across a once in a lifetime find.... a nursery that is in the middle of nowhere and found some very good trees so I bought a ton of them. Sold most right away but kept a few jewels. Infact one I sold is going to be a demo tree for Walter Pall at the PNBCA convention in Spokane Washington Sept. 2008.This type of find is almost once in a lifetime The problem with these trees (as with all nursery material) is most of the trees have been in a pot for 25 yrs and will be an absolute nightmare to work the roots down so it fits in a bonsai pot. THis may take several years and is it worth it??

Yamadori is leaps and bounds ahead of any nursery material hands down. The most valuable trees are collected, the best trees in the world are collected and any master on the planet would make a better tree out of yamadori vs. nursery material.


I am very glad that Peter said what he said. Once Ameicans open thier eyes and see it too then maybe American Bonsai will gain some respect in Japan and Europe.......

Jason

Bravo! Well said....I think everyone is pretty familier with where I stand

 

[Attila Soos]

To say that we will devote more time to a $500 tree vice a $5 one is complete hogwash.

Sorry, but not me. I'd be a little more careful with a rare and expensive tree that happens to have world-class potential. May be if I was a millionaire, it wouldn't make such a difference whether it costs $5 or $500. But I am not.

 

[Attila Soos]

After skimming through this topic I see that there are a lot of different points of view on the subject.

First I would like to start with what Mr. Warren said that started this whole thing...... BRAVO!!!!!! What he has to say is the absolute truth and he hit the nail on the head. American bonsai will never be considered as elite as long as we are playing with crap nursery material. There is the very rare instance or finding a diamond in the rough in a nursery, but that is like hitting the lottery as mentioned earlier. For example, Walter Pall is the most active "master" on the internet and almost everyone loves his trees. He has well over 500 show quality trees and how many came from nursery stock??? I think 1 juniper he got from a nursery, everything else is yamadori.

I second Al's Bravo and add another Bravo to it,

Well said Jason.
Hmm... talking about Walter. I wonder how many hours he spends crawling in Monrovia Nurseries? I guess he hasn't heard of those great deals under $5? (sorry guys, I couldn't help).

 

[Rick Moquin]

Sorry, but not me. I'd be a little more careful with a rare and expensive tree that happens to have world-class potential. May be if I was a millionaire, it wouldn't make such a difference whether it costs $5 or $500. But I am not.

... I'm no millionaire either Attila, but I value every tree and treat them all equally, regardless of value. Having said that, should I lose one which one would pain me the most, everyone, just like any child.

 

[Attila Soos]

... I'm no millionaire either Attila, but I value every tree and treat them all equally, regardless of value. Having said that, should I lose one which one would pain me the most, everyone, just like any child.

No equality for me, I hate Communism! (may be because I lived through it).

To me, every tree is not equal. Some of them are privileged bastards, while others are kicked and abused at every step.

Sometimes though, some of those trash trees surprise me with their resilience and character, and the fact that they lived through all that abuse while starting to show some beauty. When that happens, they gain new appreciation from me and move up in rank. But first, they have to earn it, those buggers.

 

[Rick Moquin]

I hear ya my friend and yes some are more special than others, but has a whole everyone is like a growing child, they have their own uniqueness and individuality and, yes sometimes not unlike a child ya wanna boot their sorry harses.

If one is practicing this craft for the fundamental reasons of what bonsai is, then no value can be attached to the attention a tree receives over another. Do you love you children differently? Having said that a child that turns bad, is it the child's fault, or did we as parents fail that child in some obscure way. I know it is often a cop out to blame the parents for failures, but are they truly responsible? To some degree yes, but to a larger extent no. Having said that do you love that child less?

Creating bonsai is not unlike raising a child, the enthusiast (I hate the word artist) must nurture and develop the tree into its full potential, regardless of what that potential is. To do any less, is to fail that child or in this instance the tree metaphorically speaking.

If you haven't guessed it yet, I do bonsai on a spiritual vice mechanical level, and no I'm not a practicing religious fanatic. just someone who finds peace and tranquility in what we do, when not debating on the internet

 

[rlist]

I second Al's Bravo and add another Bravo to it,

Well said Jason.
Hmm... talking about Walter. I wonder how many hours he spends crawling in Monrovia Nurseries? I guess he hasn't heard of those great deals under $5? (sorry guys, I couldn't help).

One of my business partner's dad is the operations manager for Monrovia's operation in Oregon - the largest nursery in the state (which is actually saying something). I have had access to all of their stock for prices that nobody else could have gotten - cheap to free. I have yet to find a tree that is worth the price.

Bravo Gamby.

 

[Chris Johnston]

While this is true in essence, there is more to the cost of a bonsai than a monetary value exchanged for it. My colorado blue spruce is an excellent piece of material that is going to be more valuable (should I decide to sell it) rather quickly over the next couple of years. I collected it myself, so the ignorant could claim it cost nothing. I know what it cost in time, effort, travel expenses, and moving strain. So if I were to sell it, would it be for $5? I don't think so, it's a quality piece of material that is worth far more. Would I trade it today for a shohin JBP in peak condition? Maybe.

Once again we end up at the talent question. I think there is far more to this worship of talent versus hard work than meets the eye. I wonder who have studied under great masters for years and never created a single noteworthy bonsai? It's probably not very politic to splash their names and works all over the net, simply because in spite of distance, it's still a fairly small commmunity.

And I also wonder, which might be more appropriate to ask an actual response, who you think have been at the art for a brief time and have created great bonsai without such formal instruction. In fact, I'd like to see some of their work.

I would again agree wholeheartedly, except that I think the less one worries about material cost, the more one might be inclined to spend!

Look at it this way: What if I had little money sto spend? What if I were to risk hearth and home if I spent $500 on a piece of material?

If I were unconcerned with the quality of material I had to work with, I might spend an hour at a time sifting through one gallon nursery pots on a weekend. Then again, I might not, and I might search through the WalMart parking lot in spring to find something to style. At any rate, if I were unconcerned, I certainly wouldn't put myself out so much.

On the other hand, if I were highly concerned with the quality of material I had to work with, I might nearly break my back collecting trees from folks' yards (con permiso) and toting them to the house. Or I might hike into the nearby mountains where I could legally collect, and sweat the equity into the tree.

Bringing home my treasures, which one will get the greater effort and care? Does it guarantee a great bonsai? Of course not! Nothing does. But I would wager, the greater equity that went into that tree, dollars or sweat, the better that tree can turn out.

Everything else seems to me to be fluff.

Alrighty then, I have a collected jack Pine that I will sell you for $20,000.00 and you can even make payments on it. It must be outstanding material, right? According to your logic, it must be quality material because it has a high price tag...I'll tell you what, I'll let you have it for 10 grand, you can still tell your friends it cost 20 grand so that they will know it is quality material too.

Silly isn't it?

Yes, your straw man is very silly. You must be working pretty hard to come to that conclusion from what I wrote above. How could you possibly get there from what I said? It's obvious to me that you are doing this misdirection for some ulterior motive, because as I have said before, you aren't stupid. Nobody could be that stupid.

Chris, price has nothing to do with quality.

Once again, a complete non sequitur, a logical break.

If Walter was visiting me and fell down, giving his head a whack and then sold me his 10 best trees for 5.00 each, would they automatically become less because of the price I paid for them? Of course not.

If you bought my 20 grand Jack Pine would it be better material because of the price you paid? Of course not, it would still be crap.

If Andy Smith told me he had to make more room and offered me 20 of his best Pines at a mere 10 bucks apiece, would their quality suddenly become less because of the price, of course not.

If I paid 20 times the asking price for a hundred imported badly designed Ficus, would that automatically make them excellent material? No, it would simply make me a fool.

If I stumbled upon a old mugo at a traditional nursery, back benched, forgotten mostly but hacked back every few years to keep it bushy, with a thick trunk, full of movement, tons of branches, and yet in good health and the owner answered my price inquiry with the words, "That thing? Hell, give me five bucks and get it out of here" would I be best to assume that the price was too cheap and therefore, according to Chris, it must be crap? I think not.

Quality material is quality material, no matter where it was found or how much was spent on it.



Will

Will, you have just proven my point again. The price put on a tree tends to reflect its value but doesn't correspond. If I collected a tree, I have equity in that tree. If it's crap, only a fool would buy it for a lot of money. If it's highly valuable, I'd be a fool to sell it for $5. So let's cut crap here just for the sake of controversy. The only person around here who seems to be overly worried about price is you.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Ding! Ding! Round 9

 

[Chris Johnston]

After skimming through this topic I see that there are a lot of different points of view on the subject.

First I would like to start with what Mr. Warren said that started this whole thing...... BRAVO!!!!!! What he has to say is the absolute truth and he hit the nail on the head. American bonsai will never be considered as elite as long as we are playing with crap nursery material. There is the very rare instance or finding a diamond in the rough in a nursery, but that is like hitting the lottery as mentioned earlier. For example, Walter Pall is the most active "master" on the internet and almost everyone loves his trees. He has well over 500 show quality trees and how many came from nursery stock??? I think 1 juniper he got from a nursery, everything else is yamadori.

With nursery stock you are able to learn on and hone skills, try new things and learn through trial and error. But in 95% of the cases that is all they are good for... How does that old saying go...."If you polish a turd it is still a turd"? Going to Home Depot or any of the box stores is a complete waste of time looking for potential bonsai.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you can find an ok tree at a normal landscape nursery that could be considered possible bonsai stock. But that is a rarity and not the norm. If all one does is get trees from a nursery then one will never have a "good" or above average bonsai collection.

Collected material, yamadori is where it is at. With yamadori you get age and charcater that you simply can not find in nursery stock. With good yamadori comes age (older than most humans for a young tree and several hundered to 1000 yr old), bark, contorted trunks and deadwood that can not be matched by man. I am surprised no one has hit on deadwood yet in this conversation. Deadwood is a major selling factor and one of the most desirable aspects of yamadori.

Contrary to popular belief (Will ) price plays a huge part in quality of stock. Come to Oregon Bonsai sometime and I will show you collected trees that cost $200 (for smaller less expensive) all the way up to $15,000.00 for med to large trees. The more expensive trees will be buying you big trunks with bark that is 100's of years old, super twisted gnarly trunks, and without a doubt future master pieces. People who spend on the upper end will have masters that take care of thier collections a few times a year.

It is a known fact that the fastest way to the best bonsai is through collected material. Collected material will not be found for sale for $5.00 a tree. Even a $5.00 nursery tree will never make a good bonsai, no one has ever posted one yet.

When I started bonsai less than 5yrs ago I was a nursery crawler and a sitck in pot guy. In the past 3 years I have "Seen the light" and now know that collected material is the fastest, best way to getting a killer collection of bonsai that will be respected by many. In less than 5 yrs I now have 5+ world class trees in my collection..... all through yamadori. Couldn't have done that with nursery material, infact no one can.

Recently I came across a once in a lifetime find.... a nursery that is in the middle of nowhere and found some very good trees so I bought a ton of them. Sold most right away but kept a few jewels. Infact one I sold is going to be a demo tree for Walter Pall at the PNBCA convention in Spokane Washington Sept. 2008.This type of find is almost once in a lifetime The problem with these trees (as with all nursery material) is most of the trees have been in a pot for 25 yrs and will be an absolute nightmare to work the roots down so it fits in a bonsai pot. THis may take several years and is it worth it??

Yamadori is leaps and bounds ahead of any nursery material hands down. The most valuable trees are collected, the best trees in the world are collected and any master on the planet would make a better tree out of yamadori vs. nursery material.


I am very glad that Peter said what he said. Once Ameicans open thier eyes and see it too then maybe American Bonsai will gain some respect in Japan and Europe.......

Jason

This is so good, I had to quote it again!!!!!BRAVO, BROTHER! AMEN! KEEP GOIN'! Man, that is good stuff!

 

[Chris Johnston]

One more thing...Will, you made some statements that you haven't backed up yet. Can you show us as many as three trees from someone a short time in the art with no technical training that are great trees?

 

[Anonymous User]

How many of you participating in this debate have taken the time to read Peter's interview in it's entirety? I know some have, but I am pretty sure a good number have not.

Thanks for taking the time to actually read Peter's interview Rick. I have, in fact I developed most of the questions for it, edited it, formatted it, and posted it.

This debate on stock aside, his interview is enlightening and inspiring, I personally think it is one of the best we have offered to date.



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Beautiful examples, Will.
I can tell you though that in my earlier days I crawled in every plant nursery in the Los Angeles area, and don't remember seing those wonderful mughos here under $5 (mind you that mughos don't do well in this area). And I was like a pest, people cringed when they saw me pull out every plant from their pots. I was doing my tours every weekend, spending my time crawling on all fours.

But I've seen similar material in bonsai nurseries for around $75. Mostly olives (olives are in this area like mughos in your area - abundant and with fat little trunks).

I guess every area has its advantages, you are lucky to have those in your are so cheap.

Thanks Attila, I would love to get my hands on some nice olives.

What he has to say is the absolute truth and he hit the nail on the head. American bonsai will never be considered as elite as long as we are playing with crap nursery material.

True, I think we all can agree that crap material is not the way to go, no matter where it is from. However, saying it is crap only because it from a nursery is not true, it is crap because of what the stock has to offer, or lack thereof.

There is the very rare instance or finding a diamond in the rough in a nursery, but that is like hitting the lottery as mentioned earlier.

Let's be perfectly honest here Jason, not every tree at a bonsai nursery is a jewel in the rough either, you still have to search for quality. Sure, the ratio may be higher, but it is still far from 100%

Going to Home Depot or any of the box stores is a complete waste of time looking for potential bonsai.

Again, a generilization that is not aways true, one good example is of a recnt purchase of a few dozen trees during a fall sale for a forest planting.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you can find an ok tree at a normal landscape nursery that could be considered possible bonsai stock. But that is a rarity and not the norm. If all one does is get trees from a nursery then one will never have a "good" or above average bonsai collection.

what may be rare in one area is not rare in all areas. No one here suggested only shopping at traditional nurseries or big box stores, what has been said since the beginning is that good stock is where you find it. Price or location does not dictate quality of stock.

Collected material, yamadori is where it is at.

I agree, it is also less expensive if you have the skill to collect your own material.

Contrary to popular belief (Will ) price plays a huge part in quality of stock. Come to Oregon Bonsai sometime and I will show you collected trees that cost $200 (for smaller less expensive) all the way up to $15,000.00 for med to large trees. The more expensive trees will be buying you big trunks with bark that is 100's of years old, super twisted gnarly trunks, and without a doubt future master pieces. People who spend on the upper end will have masters that take care of thier collections a few times a year.

Price does not dictate quality. Come to Michigan and I'll show you some stunted Jack Pines that have no price tag on them. Does that make them worthless? If I put a tag on them for 5000 bucks does that make them better than any 4000 stock?

It is a known fact that the fastest way to the best bonsai is through collected material. Collected material will not be found for sale for $5.00 a tree. Even a $5.00 nursery tree will never make a good bonsai, no one has ever posted one yet.

Really? Walter's collection is filled with collected trees that cost less than 5 bucks.

One more thing...Will, you made some statements that you haven't backed up yet. Can you show us as many as three trees from someone a short time in the art with no technical training that are great trees?

There you go again, falsehoods and misquotes, when will it ever end?

Perhaps re-reading my words would help?



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Yes, your straw man is very silly. You must be working pretty hard to come to that conclusion from what I wrote above. How could you possibly get there from what I said? It's obvious to me that you are doing this misdirection for some ulterior motive, because as I have said before, you aren't stupid. Nobody could be that stupid.

Don't try and set the example, please.

It is really simple, maybe too simple, that might be the problem.

Price does not dictate quality.

A 500 dollar tree is not automatically better than a 300 dollar tree. Price does not make the tree good or bad, the qualities the tree has makes it good, not the price paid.

Purchase location does not automatically make a tree good either. Price or location do not matter at all, all that matters is the quality of the tree.

You keep pounding your head against the wall Chris, set up a few more payment plans to purchase "quality" meanwhile I'll continue finding great material wherever it may be found, at whatever price it may be found.

And before someone suggests it, I am not against paying a premium price for good material or shopping at bonsai nurseries. However, I am also not foolhardy enough to pass up great material just because it is at a traditional nursery or because it has a great price as well.


Will

 

[Ang3lfir3]

After skimming through this topic I see that there are a lot of different points of view on the subject.

First I would like to start with what Mr. Warren said that started this whole thing...... BRAVO!!!!!! What he has to say is the absolute truth and he hit the nail on the head. American bonsai will never be considered as elite as long as we are playing with crap nursery material. There is the very rare instance or finding a diamond in the rough in a nursery, but that is like hitting the lottery as mentioned earlier. For example, Walter Pall is the most active "master" on the internet and almost everyone loves his trees. He has well over 500 show quality trees and how many came from nursery stock??? I think 1 juniper he got from a nursery, everything else is yamadori.

With nursery stock you are able to learn on and hone skills, try new things and learn through trial and error. But in 95% of the cases that is all they are good for... How does that old saying go...."If you polish a turd it is still a turd"? Going to Home Depot or any of the box stores is a complete waste of time looking for potential bonsai.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you can find an ok tree at a normal landscape nursery that could be considered possible bonsai stock. But that is a rarity and not the norm. If all one does is get trees from a nursery then one will never have a "good" or above average bonsai collection.

Collected material, yamadori is where it is at. With yamadori you get age and charcater that you simply can not find in nursery stock. With good yamadori comes age (older than most humans for a young tree and several hundered to 1000 yr old), bark, contorted trunks and deadwood that can not be matched by man. I am surprised no one has hit on deadwood yet in this conversation. Deadwood is a major selling factor and one of the most desirable aspects of yamadori.

Contrary to popular belief (Will ) price plays a huge part in quality of stock. Come to Oregon Bonsai sometime and I will show you collected trees that cost $200 (for smaller less expensive) all the way up to $15,000.00 for med to large trees. The more expensive trees will be buying you big trunks with bark that is 100's of years old, super twisted gnarly trunks, and without a doubt future master pieces. People who spend on the upper end will have masters that take care of thier collections a few times a year.

It is a known fact that the fastest way to the best bonsai is through collected material. Collected material will not be found for sale for $5.00 a tree. Even a $5.00 nursery tree will never make a good bonsai, no one has ever posted one yet.

When I started bonsai less than 5yrs ago I was a nursery crawler and a sitck in pot guy. In the past 3 years I have "Seen the light" and now know that collected material is the fastest, best way to getting a killer collection of bonsai that will be respected by many. In less than 5 yrs I now have 5+ world class trees in my collection..... all through yamadori. Couldn't have done that with nursery material, infact no one can.

Recently I came across a once in a lifetime find.... a nursery that is in the middle of nowhere and found some very good trees so I bought a ton of them. Sold most right away but kept a few jewels. Infact one I sold is going to be a demo tree for Walter Pall at the PNBCA convention in Spokane Washington Sept. 2008.This type of find is almost once in a lifetime The problem with these trees (as with all nursery material) is most of the trees have been in a pot for 25 yrs and will be an absolute nightmare to work the roots down so it fits in a bonsai pot. THis may take several years and is it worth it??

Yamadori is leaps and bounds ahead of any nursery material hands down. The most valuable trees are collected, the best trees in the world are collected and any master on the planet would make a better tree out of yamadori vs. nursery material.


I am very glad that Peter said what he said. Once Ameicans open thier eyes and see it too then maybe American Bonsai will gain some respect in Japan and Europe.......

Jason

Quoted one more time for good measure.... AMEN!!!!!!!