Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Yep, others consider a bonsai potted in 3 years an instant bonsai. Someone need to define the parameters for this conversation (at least) so we are all in the same page.
Instant Bonsai..The New Trend???
- Thread starter october
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Yep, others consider a bonsai potted in 3 years an instant bonsai. Someone need to define the parameters for this conversation (at least) so we are all in the same page.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
The true instant bonsai is buying a completed bonsai. Don't for a minute think that because you have managed to produce a really nice tree out of a good piece of stock that there is nothing left to do. There are two things involved in the so called instant bonsai: One is the talent and artistry to make something of less than something, Two: you have to be able to keep it alive and continuing to improve after what could be described as drastic initial treatment. I don't know why you would resist the opportunity to make a nice tree in a season? Take this from someone who has his whole life developed everything from raw material. To me creating the good bonsai is more important to me than simply having the good bonsai.
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Don't misunderstand me. I love "finished" bonsai and I understand at the same time that there is no such thing.
What I am saying is that for me, the joy is in the journey of the living thing not the static image of "perfection". Like a river is beautiful but always changing. Do I hope to have show-able trees one day? Absolutely, but only because it is another chapter in the story of a living thing.
It is like listening to my son play his music, do I enjoy the performance of the orchestra? ABSOLUTELY! However, I actually glean as much enjoyment from listening to him practice and watching and listening as his technique improves.
So what I am saying is, I am in no hurry to have all my trees show-able because I enjoy everything about bonsai!
What I am saying is that for me, the joy is in the journey of the living thing not the static image of "perfection". Like a river is beautiful but always changing. Do I hope to have show-able trees one day? Absolutely, but only because it is another chapter in the story of a living thing.
It is like listening to my son play his music, do I enjoy the performance of the orchestra? ABSOLUTELY! However, I actually glean as much enjoyment from listening to him practice and watching and listening as his technique improves.
So what I am saying is, I am in no hurry to have all my trees show-able because I enjoy everything about bonsai!
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Don't misunderstand me. I love "finished" bonsai and I understand at the same time that there is no such thing.
What I am saying is that for me, the joy is in the journey of the living thing not the static image of "perfection". Like a river is beautiful but always changing. Do I hope to have show-able trees one day? Absolutely, but only because it is another chapter in the story of a living thing.
It is like listening to my son play his music, do I enjoy the performance of the orchestra? ABSOLUTELY! However, I actually glean as much enjoyment from listening to him practice and watching and listening as his technique improves.
So what I am saying is, I am in no hurry to have all my trees show-able because I enjoy everything about bonsai!
Absolutely but take a lesson from your son's musical experience. I don't think you would be happy hearing him play Red River Valley and nothing else. What I think you do take pride in is when he learns enough that he is not only unafraid to take on Bach, Beethoven, and Brams, he can actually pick up a piece of this music and sight read it. On the flip side of this argument I don't think he would be very happy if he was given Red River Valley to play. In the beginning the Red River Valley was hard to play, now it's child's play and you wouldn't want him going backward either----or maybe I'm wrong?
I guess what I am trying to say is don't be so stubborn about the way you produce bonsai that in the end you never do.
october
Masterpiece
I don't think there can be a clear cut definition of instant bonsai.. I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that the issue is probably not so much the instant bonsai. It is more the case that there are fewer progressions from poor stock or from stock that would take at least 8-10 years plus to create a nice tree. This is not necessarliy a bad thing. We all want great material, including myself. This is certainly understandable. Many people do not want to start with nothing and work on it for 20 years to get something.
There is no doubt that with our fast moving society and the fact that there are younger enthusiasts who have gained great recognition for their contributions to bonsai. The younger "masters" do not have bonsai progressions over many years simply because they have not been in bonsai for many years. This is not a bad thing.. Of course, one cannot be faulted for chronological situations. It is a positive to be able to work on great material and make it a great bonsai in a short time. I think that many years ago, if you had 3-5 years in bonsai, you were considered an absolute beginner. Now, we have people who have somewhat mastered the art in just a couple more years than that. To achieve this, it takes incredible determination, passion but also other factors. Money, access to good material, great teachers and plenty of time to devote to the art.
Like all things, there is and will always be differences in generations. The old school way seemed to work on a variety of material, both with potential and poor to start material. Then take decades to create something with it. If you look at many of the old masters starting rough stock, I think much of the material would be passed up by todays standards.
The reason for this thread was not for sides to be taken or to have a negative or positive side. It was just to point out that for the last 5 years or so, I have been seeing more and more beautiful bonsai being created from beautiful pre stock. Not from sticks in pots, seeds, very young stock or sub par material.
Rob
There is no doubt that with our fast moving society and the fact that there are younger enthusiasts who have gained great recognition for their contributions to bonsai. The younger "masters" do not have bonsai progressions over many years simply because they have not been in bonsai for many years. This is not a bad thing.. Of course, one cannot be faulted for chronological situations. It is a positive to be able to work on great material and make it a great bonsai in a short time. I think that many years ago, if you had 3-5 years in bonsai, you were considered an absolute beginner. Now, we have people who have somewhat mastered the art in just a couple more years than that. To achieve this, it takes incredible determination, passion but also other factors. Money, access to good material, great teachers and plenty of time to devote to the art.
Like all things, there is and will always be differences in generations. The old school way seemed to work on a variety of material, both with potential and poor to start material. Then take decades to create something with it. If you look at many of the old masters starting rough stock, I think much of the material would be passed up by todays standards.
The reason for this thread was not for sides to be taken or to have a negative or positive side. It was just to point out that for the last 5 years or so, I have been seeing more and more beautiful bonsai being created from beautiful pre stock. Not from sticks in pots, seeds, very young stock or sub par material.
Rob
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milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Hi Grim.. I commend you on your views to approaching bonsai. It is rare that you read someone saying they want to learn first and do later. Learning is key. In todays access to information, it is certainly easier to learn about bonsai today rather than 10-15-20 years ago.
In the meantime though, you can always get a couple of nice junipers that are relatively inexpensive and that you can work on. Nothing wrong with jumping in and working on a tree. Juni's are tough, forgiving and in Winter, they can be left for alone for a while which would give you some time to travel. I think the addition of a couple of nice starter trees will make the hobby even more appealing to you. Just become familar with the 5 styles of bonsai, then get to shaping those junipers into the style you think the tree best matches.
Rob
Had an interesting day here as my Wife told me she was doing a LARGE chop on a Juniper and wanted me to have and use the "chop" if I wanted
She also suggested I get another Juniper or two to "keep me busy" as I do my "thing" with seedlings, saplings and accents...Bottom line is Thank You and I will proceed without aprehension
elliott
Yamadori
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I guess it depends on what you call bonsai. At what point is a tree no longer raw stock and is bonsai? is it when it gives you that "feeling" of being a mature tree? is it when It finaly goes into a bonsai pot? is it when it's showable?
I believe you can take, in some cases, some fairly raw stock, style it, and you can loosely call it a bonsai. But I have yet to see a piece of raw material turn into a showable tree in one styling.
One of my bonsai teachers loves conifers for the simple fact that broad leaf trees "bore" him. He can turn out a raw juniper or pine in a day or 2 and have something cool to enjoy (but not showable), where as a maple or elm or ficus, etc, will take many years.
Having a master go on stage and turn out a raw yamadori into a piece of art is great entertainment, but even those trees will need years before the wire and raffia can come off and the tree gets that mature, settled in look.
I have not been to Europe to see trees yet, but I have been told that alot of those instant stage done trees often die and or don't have any back branches, in other words, they look good on a stage from far away or in a book or mag, but on close inspection, they have no depth.
The tree that won best in show at the last GSBF convention in Sacramento last Holloween, was an incredible tree. I believe it was styled by Ryan (can't remember for sure). But it was not ready to be showed in my opinion. It had that just styled look and a couple years to round out the edges and have the wire come off and a little more ramification, it will be superlative. I can understand the owner and why he showed it. It was realy nice and alot of people felt that way, after all, it did win the show! so I'm not going to blame the owner. Like I said, it's a subjective thing to decide when a tree is bonsai and when it's stock.
And if you are doing right by a tree, it will eventualy be a bonsai, then get a little grown out and be stock again for a while to gain strength then be restyled and become bonsai again. this will happen over and over again through the life of the tree with more time in between as the years go on.
I believe you can take, in some cases, some fairly raw stock, style it, and you can loosely call it a bonsai. But I have yet to see a piece of raw material turn into a showable tree in one styling.
One of my bonsai teachers loves conifers for the simple fact that broad leaf trees "bore" him. He can turn out a raw juniper or pine in a day or 2 and have something cool to enjoy (but not showable), where as a maple or elm or ficus, etc, will take many years.
Having a master go on stage and turn out a raw yamadori into a piece of art is great entertainment, but even those trees will need years before the wire and raffia can come off and the tree gets that mature, settled in look.
I have not been to Europe to see trees yet, but I have been told that alot of those instant stage done trees often die and or don't have any back branches, in other words, they look good on a stage from far away or in a book or mag, but on close inspection, they have no depth.
The tree that won best in show at the last GSBF convention in Sacramento last Holloween, was an incredible tree. I believe it was styled by Ryan (can't remember for sure). But it was not ready to be showed in my opinion. It had that just styled look and a couple years to round out the edges and have the wire come off and a little more ramification, it will be superlative. I can understand the owner and why he showed it. It was realy nice and alot of people felt that way, after all, it did win the show! so I'm not going to blame the owner. Like I said, it's a subjective thing to decide when a tree is bonsai and when it's stock.
And if you are doing right by a tree, it will eventualy be a bonsai, then get a little grown out and be stock again for a while to gain strength then be restyled and become bonsai again. this will happen over and over again through the life of the tree with more time in between as the years go on.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
I define "nothing" as instant... and I am pretty certain many agree. I consider this an "Art" which is Judged by many... There is a LOT of room and years to "play" here with your own needs and desires
gergwebber
Shohin
my new instant bonsai:
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
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