Is it a personal preference?

[stacy allen muse]

????????????

 

[ABCarve]

OK, here's one. Why does it have to look like a tree at all? The more techniques I've been seeing here, the more I'm starting to look at tree as sculpture material. Just like stone, bronze or wood. Is anyone doing anything a bit more abstract? The styling seems to be a bit static for an art form. Don't get wrong I love the stuff that out there. Looking at a couple of websites I can scroll to my hearts content to see one beautiful tree after another. So many that it seems to make them into a commodity. I've walked through many art museums to see a particular artist and realize I've just walked by hundreds of masterpieces and never noticed them. I think the best thing about bonsai is that it is an art form that requires participation even when it's sold to another.

 

[nathanbs]

OK, here's one. Why does it have to look like a tree at all? The more techniques I've been seeing here, the more I'm starting to look at tree as sculpture material. Just like stone, bronze or wood. Is anyone doing anything a bit more abstract? The styling seems to be a bit static for an art form. Don't get wrong I love the stuff that out there. Looking at a couple of websites I can scroll to my hearts content to see one beautiful tree after another. So many that it seems to make them into a commodity. I've walked through many art museums to see a particular artist and realize I've just walked by hundreds of masterpieces and never noticed them. I think the best thing about bonsai is that it is an art form that requires participation even when it's sold to another.

It is indeed art and can be executed in many shapes, and forms with many different techniques. Amazing wood carving by the way

 

[ABCarve]

It is indeed a wonderful art form. I just wonder if there are people doing some bizarre beautiful stuff and keeping it in the closet for fear of......well you know. Thank for your compliment. I've changed my focus back to my trees which have been neglected for far too many years.

 

[ABCarve]

BTW. The sumo thing is interesting, just a bit of fantasy to look at. However, I thought the example given looked a bit like Jaba the Hut. There's even a face on it.

 

[PaulH]

interesting that I being fairly new to this think naturalistic is easier. You've done this way longer than me so I have to respect your input. What do others think about difficulty when executing naturalistic versus "sumo" or "bunjin"?

Naturalistic styling is not putting a tree in a bonsai pot and letting it just grow naturally. First the artist must have studied enough trees in nature to have a firm understanding of the nature of each tree species. Then you need the imagination and vision to translate that nature into a small scale. Finally, you need the skills and techniques to create the feeling of shape and proportion true to the tree species but in perfect miniature scale. This is the hard part to make believable.

 

[Gene Deci]

I saw some trees once at a regular nursery that were advertised as bonsai. I didn't recognize them when I first saw them because they were so "unusual". There was a tall, straight, pencil skinny juniper with straight skinny branches and no foliage except round balls at the end of each branch. If it hadn't been in a bonsai pot, I would have thought it was supposed to be topiary. There were trees that had been shaped like letters and one coiled like a slinky. There were others just as odd. All of them demonstrated some skill to create but none attempted to replicate nature in miniature. I didn't consider them bonsai for that reason. That was a number of years ago but it still makes me wonder if there are any limits to what can be called a bonsai. Probably not and that is ok but I still prefer more classic styles.

 

[nathanbs]

Naturalistic styling is not putting a tree in a bonsai pot and letting it just grow naturally. First the artist must have studied enough trees in nature to have a firm understanding of the nature of each tree species. Then you need the imagination and vision to translate that nature into a small scale. Finally, you need the skills and techniques to create the feeling of shape and proportion true to the tree species but in perfect miniature scale. This is the hard part to make believable.

Of course not. Even I know better than that. But I assumed you meant more than that and maybe the later stages is where it gets more complicated but so far at this point I find it relatively easy compared to free form creation and design. I'll be the first to say I still have a lot to learn but that is my novice opinion

 

[PaulH]

Of course not. Even I know better than that. But I assumed you meant more than that and maybe the later stages is where it gets more complicated but so far at this point I find it relatively easy compared to free form creation and design. I'll be the first to say I still have a lot to learn but that is my novice opinion

I figured you knew that. But a lot of people don't.

 

[Don Blackmond]

I like sumo trees. But then again I like all trees..., well most trees.

One of the things I find interesting about these discussions involving natural looking bonsai trees is that trees growing in nature rarely look like bonsai portrayed as natural looking trees. Evidently trees here in Michigan were not the model for the folks who decided what natural means.

In all seriousness, though, bonsai is art and art is all about interpretation through scale or distortion. The end result should be enjoyable to view whether its a miniature version of something you might see in nature, or a miniature version of something you think you might see in nature, or a miniature distortion of reality.

 

[JudyB]

I find the problem with "preferences", occur when people close their minds to another idea, just because they do something that is not what they would choose. And also close their minds and ears to anything that person, tree, or technique may have to teach you.

I like all different kinds of trees. Anything that moves me is good. I don't feel the need to pick a camp, or side, or type. And I think that the conflict that some feel is detrimental to themselves, and to the art in general (sometimes...)
just my opinion, as always.

 

[october]

In my opinion, it does not come down to naturalstic vs sumo or any other tree style against tree style. It depends on that one tree. The one tree that is in front of you or any bonsai artist. For someone who is really passionate about bonsai. Styling a tree is a significant, almost intimate experience. You will notice that the people that truly love trees always style WITH the tree, not against it. The tree dictates what it will be. You augment the style. You create the bonsai, but not the tree. Thin trunk, sumo, cascade is irrelevent. What is relevent is how beautiful a bonsai that tree in front of you can become.

In my opinion..This whole natuaralstic style has been taken completely out of context. A natural style can be a simple broom style tree. However, it may have taken 5-10-15 years for the artist to create this 'natural style". In some cases, lack of knowledge about the art in general can lead to a sort of rebellious attitutde. I have read so many times by people new to bonsai (under 1 years or so). " I am just going to do my own thing". I say, how can you do your own thing or rebel against something that you have not even learned and do not understand. Also, it is not about rebeling against tradition or even doing your own thing. Once again, it is about making this one tree in front of you the best bonsai it can be. Also, not comparing it to any other bonsai.

I know that debates among bonsai enthusists are endless. However, let's not bring in debates among the styles themselves. lol...it's almost like.. My cascade can beat up your bunjin...lol


P.s. Here is a top notch sumo like tree. Is there anyone that does not think this is a magnificent tree or see it's beauty?

Rob

 

[Poink88]

I have read so many times by people new to bonsai (under 1 years or so). " I am just going to do my own thing". I say, how can you do your own thing or rebel against something that you have not even learned and do not understand. Also, it is not about rebeling against tradition or even doing your own thing. Once again, it is about making this one tree in front of you the best bonsai it can be.

That almost fit me to the "T" LOL

But to my (and those you read if from) defense, have you considered that their thing may be what they learned and understood? Yes, they are in it for less than a year but you do not know what they know...right? It could be about "making this one tree in front of them the best bonsai it can be." (yes, matches your thoughts exactly)

In my other hobbies, I've seen some who have been doing things for decades, even half a century and here comes a newbie who produces a much better product in less than 3 months. Is he just lucky? Maybe once, or twice but if he starts producing consistently, when do you acknowledge that newbie might be on to something? That it is not the years, but the quality time he spent on the hobby that matters (& talent too ).

I had a classmate who can make something totally amazing (no matter what art subject) that no matter how hard I try I can never match. I could major in art, take masters, and doctorate and believe I still won't be able to make anything close to his work. Same is true with bonsai IMHO.

Please do not judge the newbies as "rebels" because they choose to do their own thing, it is their way of learning. Yes, it could be bad, or may take longer, even detrimental, but it could also lead to something good.

Try to lead them if you want but don't condemn them if they want to create their own path.

Re: that sumo, it is nice & pretty but IMHO not magnificent. I may never even create one near that quality in my lifetime but this is my opinion based on my taste.

 

[october]

Hello Poink I agree with you on many points. However, we have a misunderstanding about the "newbie" comments. I was in no way condeming them. Just some of the attitude. What I meant was.. I have seen that sometimes a new enthusiasts shows a bonsai and then asks for opinions. People will offer good advice and suggestions. In which case, they turn around and say, I don't agree or I don't want to do.. I am just going to do my own thing and create my own styles. Mind you, some people that offer information have like 20-30 years experience. There guidance should be appreciated.

There is no problem in doing what you want to do. After you learn the guidelines and proper horticulture to ensure tree health and survival, then you can and should do whatever you want. In time, we all realize that it is not a matter of rebelling or creating different looking trees. It is just about making each bonsai the best it can be.

When I started bonsai years ago. There were not all these sites and places to learn endless bonsai information. If you found someone who had the experience, it was good to listen and learn.

As far as the sumo I posted. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion. I should mention this tree is from Suthin Sukosolvisit. Suthin is considered one of the top bonsai artists in America and beyond at this time. Also, as far as shohin, it is said that he has no equal in the United states. He is from Thailand and has been creating bonsai for 43 years. Not trying to change your view, just wanted to offer some information.

 

[Poink88]

October,

Thank you.

That sumo is nice but I find a few of the angles too abrupt and didn't suit my taste. FYI, I've reached the age when names hardly matter anymore. I've seen Noelanders entries I didn't care about and I know they are there for good reason but I cannot force myself to like them. I always appreciate the talent, time, and effort that went to their creation though.

Re: help...it is indeed something we newbies should celebrate when learned bonsaists offer their help. BUT as everything in the internet, I learned NEVER to take everything from anyone...even the "EXPERTS" who have been doing it for decades and profess they know everything. I filter everything and choose which to take...act accordingly and take responsibility for it (right or wrong). Saved me and my trees a few times believe it or not. And yes...some of my poor choice led to not so good results too!

BTW, I agree with you on most points as well. Thanks!

 

[stacy allen muse]

?????????????

 

[Tona]

I appreciate both styles but believe that Bonsai as an art is an illusion of sorts. Attempting to get the viewer to perceive age. The sumo tree creates the illusion of a powerful trunk, hence imparts the perception of age. Bunjin uses a different type of illusion to create the perception of age. I agree with Poink, and some of my trees have been "compromised" by "experts". It does seem that when seeking advice, a filter is needed. I have asked multiple experienced bonsaists ( I made a word up) about the same tree and received conflicting input. This I believe, shows that there is room for interpretation when determining how to style any tree.

 

[Poink88]

Tona touched on something very important that I forgot to mention...conflicting advise. They may all be good to their respective locale but not where I am. May fit their style and taste but not mine. Timely for their weather, frequent enough for their soil mix, ... etc., etc.

Bottom line is, there are real factors we have to consider (if we want to be any good at this) and cannot just blindly follow some advise.

 

[bonsaibp]

I appreciate both styles but believe that Bonsai as an art is an illusion of sorts. Attempting to get the viewer to perceive age. The sumo tree creates the illusion of a powerful trunk, hence imparts the perception of age. Bunjin uses a different type of illusion to create the perception of age. I agree with Poink, and some of my trees have been "compromised" by "experts". It does seem that when seeking advice, a filter is needed. I have asked multiple experienced bonsaists ( I made a word up) about the same tree and received conflicting input. This I believe, shows that there is room for interpretation when determining how to style any tree.

Very often the conflicting advice doesn't have anything to do with one being right and another wrong- but how different people see different things in a tree. It can definitely get confusing especially for a newcomer to show a tree to one experienced person and be told "I think you should do this" then someone else says "I think you should do that" while a third says something else. I've seen people be told to style the same tree 3-4 different ways. It doesn't mean one is right just that each of us see things differently. Especially when we're talikng about styling. Even horticultural care though will bring out different opinions. Some people have no problem transplanting junipers in summer, others can't.Some say use only this fertilizer others say that and still others say something else.Or soil mixes-there are hundreds of them some work for some but not others. There are lots of variables based on all kinds of things- location, money, time, differences in priorities , personal experience, etc.. Some want and get different things from their bonsai.For some its a serious art for others a hobby. For some it can be spiritual for others just a pleasant pastime. Some may want to create world class bonsai others just want cool little trees in a pot and everything inbetween. Is one way right and the others wrong? I don't think so. The bottom line is that the tree belongs to the owner and if it gives him or her pleasure then that's what matters.

 

[berobinson82]

I"m very appreciative of those of you that have contributed to this thread. It has certainly given me plenty to consider. I used the word 'fantasy' to describe the sumo style; the better descriptor is 'abstract'. So then, we have different renditions of the same subject. All decided by the material, encouraged by the artist, interpreted by the viewer, and the world keeps spinning.

I believe I should indeed find some suitable material and venture into the abstract world of sumo, if only to better understand and appreciate its intricacies.

Again, thank you for the education.