Judging New Talent

coh

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Could you please quote in its entirety where I have said that this competition should be based solely on wireing.

Since when is "So why should the final judgement be based primarily on that one skill over all the others?" (my direct quote) equivalent to "competition should be based solely on wireing" (your interpretation of my quote)? Did the meaning of "primarily" get changed to "solely" at some point?

Perhaps I misinterpreted your comments (if so, I apologize), but I don't think so. You've stated several times that you think the degree of finish/wiring should be the most important item. For example,

"I still contend that six canopies are messy and one is very tidy, that alone seperates it from the rest."

"if all these teachers were available to the public for the same price and your sore suit was wireing a tree to look like a finely groomed bonsai, (of which there are many right on this forum) who would you enlist for help? That is what a talent contest is supposed to do for this group."

Am I interpreting your comments differently than you intended? If so, please clarify as others seem to have taken them the same way.

Anyway...I've expressed my thoughts, looking forward to seeing others weigh in.
 

coh

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Wanted to add one more bit of interesting trivia...
...

The responses I got back on the trees from the judges was that mine
Was the most creative and I had used the material to the best advantage,
And because I actually had foliage left, mine had the best chance for
Future development... however... because I didn't finish, and did not
Remove all the foliage that the others had and had not done the fine
Wiring, this was the reason for me not winning...

So, ain't that a bitch... having said this, with all due respect to those who
Had participated, I wouldn't have removed as much as they had... I
Mean, even though I am from Florida, and we aren't really known for our
Juniper bonsai, I know enough to not remove what they did. Quite a few
Of them I know did die...

Ain't that a kick in the...pants! So I have to ask, were you given a set of rules or judging guidelines before either event? Something that stated how the results would be judged? Or is everyone flying blind, so to speak?
 

garywood

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i read this thread and the other thread. All the artists are skilled and can make nice trees, I have no doubts of their abilities, they are artists. But I'm taking away that bonsai should have a 5 or 10 year contest, where contestants must work a tree on day one and then develop it for several years with a future specified finish date.

Wasn't there a 5 year challenge here on bnut? Something of the like? Imagine high caliber stock for high caliber participants like in the roth competition but also proving the skill of not overworking it, feeding it right, keeping it healthy, etc. isn't that a skill, or at least an ability?
I'd like to think thats part of being a master.

NY, I've been advocating for years that conventions should offer a workshop with (a) teacher with specific specie and follow it up yearly as bring it back. Economics is usually the shoot down instead of education
 

PaulH

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. Since he was the chair for the entire Convention I'm sure the convention payed a fortune for the trees.

I gotta stick up for Scott, He sold the trees at his cost, $75.

Also I'm seeing unfair implications of bias on the part of Peter Tea. Since Peter is a student of Boon's, why didn't Boon's students win?
 
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Ain't that a kick in the...pants! So I have to ask, were you given a set of rules or judging guidelines before either event? Something that stated how the results would be judged? Or is everyone flying blind, so to speak?
We were not... And as you see with the comparison between the two.
Last years and this years, it really is up to what the judges decide. Only
problem with this is that obviously it just puts it into their hands as to what
they decide, and how they decide. I am very sure they are all competent and
know what they are doing. I have full confidence in them personally and feel
whole heartily that everyone of them takes this job very seriously.

Obviously there are going to be variations between the way they personally
view doing bonsai and what is of the most importance. There are as I mentioned
in my thread going to be regional differences, where ways of doing certain things
are more the norm, and others not so much, which I am sure is going to hold some
weight with the judges, especially seeing that often they are the one's actually teaching
these techniques.

But to answer your question we as participants are not given a set of actual rules
as to what and how they will be judge. The Judges I know are given a checklist, that
they go through and rate each tree by, where it ask certain questions like how is the
wiring, foliage padding, etc. and they fill out a number value as well as any personal
comment to pass along to us as to how we might improve. At the end these are tallied
up and the results are given. It is all kinda loose and would be very easy for a judge to
perhaps if they wanted to vote with a outside interests in mind I am sure...

However, I would hate to think that anyone would actually do this, and in all honesty,
I don't think anyone really would. I think that most take this with great pride, and it
really is an honor. I personally believe now having done it twice... that how and why the
winners are chosen has a lot more to do with the regional thing I had mentioned earlier.
That the judges are probably more opt to vote higher on ways they are used to seeing
things being done. And are probably more opt to vote lower on ways things are done that
they are not used to...

Now with that said... Smoke is correct that is quite clear to everyone involved, by this I
mean contestants, organizers, judges, public, etc. that main intention is to finish the tree.
That day. And really unless one is injured or as I was last year having to take care of more
important matters, there really is enough time to finish the tree for the most part. And if
one manages their time correctly, there should have been no reason why the others didn't
end up with similar finished trees as I did. The whole goal is to really show the overall picture
of the tree. They want to see some deadwood, jins/sharis, some nice branch placement, fine
wiring, overall composition. negative space, shape of the tree, and padding, etc.

They know that one is not going to be able to necessarily get all these to perfection within
the time allotted, but instead want to see that one is capable of doing overall rather than just perfection
in one area.

I don't know if you were looking for a different answer here, or if I answer and supplied you
with what you were wanting to know. I know you and Smoke are going back n forth here, but
sadly I got to agree with him. Sorry.

I am not agreeing with him just because he likes what I did, and I am sure he is not saying
what he saying just because he likes me:) But, what is being missed here and on my discussion,
is that the contest is clearly meant to be about the whole package. Everyone is commenting on
my fine wiring, and missed the whole point that I too created a shari, had plenty of jins... I
did quite a bit of major branch movement, using both guy wires, "v" notching, as well as wiring.
I fine wired all except one small branch that really was to small to wire, I developed pads through
out the whole tree, I sat and trimmed each and every one as I went along as well as removed all
foliage hanging below each and every one of them, I developed a nice fully shaped apex, and the
list goes on and on. The only thing I didn't do was use raffia. Carving is nice, but on a juniper, one
can easily pull and splinter jins and sharis.

So, I gotta go really with Smoke here and say that I should have won in all honesty mainly due
to the fact that I actually did each and everyone of these things and I had the most well rounded
tree which demonstrated that I knew how to do each and every one of the things that normally
one would want to see from a new, up and coming talent, Not to mention proper time management
within the confines of the contest. Which clearly showed I was well aware of exactly how long each
process took and where to devote the most time. Why I did not win... is clearly
a mystery to me... Clearly I guess the judges just viewed it differently.
:cool:
 
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I gotta stick up for Scott, He sold the trees at his cost, $75.

Also I'm seeing unfair implications of bias on the part of Peter Tea. Since Peter is a student of Boon's, why didn't Boon's students win?
Scott let me borrow his carving tool that morning.
When I showed up and found the tools I brought were not going
to be sufficient enough to work on the trees. He helped me out.
I told him it was going to be a hard work trying to jin one inch
branches with 7" pliers. He and his wife were very nice. And I thank
them for that.:)

The trees were offered at cost he told me that morning about them and
how he had found them and what he had paid for them... He was very excited
to see what we would do with them.

His wife the next day when I went to return the tool, ask me where I was from
and what tree was mine... I told her which one, and she was so happy, she kept
telling me how much she liked what I had done, and that she had voted for me.

She was one of the individuals that told me that I was welcomed at their place
anytime to come style trees. Cool people !

Side note... I think that Peter and the rest of the judges deserve due credit for
their judging. And personally think it would be unfair to accuse one or any of them
of doing something in appropriate without actual evidence. So, personally I would
rather see us all not go down this route.
:cool:
 

Smoke

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I gotta stick up for Scott, He sold the trees at his cost, $75.

Also I'm seeing unfair implications of bias on the part of Peter Tea. Since Peter is a student of Boon's, why didn't Boon's students win?

I guess I misunderstood, he told me he was selling them for 200.00. Maybe that was at the nursery.

I'll just stay with my prediction and leave it at that....
 

Wee

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Stacy....Did Ya'll know ahead of time who the judges would be....If so how far ahead....?

Brian
 

coh

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I don't know if you were looking for a different answer here, or if I answer and supplied you
with what you were wanting to know. I know you and Smoke are going back n forth here, but
sadly I got to agree with him. Sorry.
Nothing to be sorry about! I have no agenda, I just wanted to know if you all received an explanation of judging criteria before the event. Just trying to understand the process. Thanks for the additional information!

Chris
 
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Stacy....Did Ya'll know ahead of time who the judges would be....If so how far ahead....?

Brian

I gotta say, that I still don't know who the judges were.
So no... I did find out one was Peter. mainly because I saw him actually judging
them later that night when all the public was discussing them and voting.
Other than that...
 
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Nothing to be sorry about! I have no agenda, I just wanted to know if you all received an explanation of judging criteria before the event. Just trying to understand the process. Thanks for the additional information!

Chris

No problem !:)
 

Smoke

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Usually the headliners judge them. That would have been Peter Tea, Kathy Shaner and Dave DeGroot.
 
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Usually the headliners judge them. That would have been Peter Tea, Kathy Shaner and Dave DeGroot.

Well hell... I didn't even know they were the headliners !!!
 

Wee

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Stacy thanks for the answer...Just wondering if Ya'll knew and if any research was done considering who the judges were prior to the competition.

Brian
 

sorce

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First and foremost.

Stacy. I was right. It was the hat! I am one to sniff out and condemn a sore loser. There is absolutely nothing here that has you sounding like one. Quite the contrary in fact. Your position (not the rank in the contest, should've been #1) is well accepted.

Two. Peter Tea does not seem the feller to go that route. Paul H made an excellent point. Peter does need to update his blog though. Shame on him for that, lol!

And finally.

If this is a contest to find the next teachers of bonsai.....which to me, comes with the paid for (as a professional) work of coming to style trees for you, I pose this question....

Who would you spend $$$ on?

The guy who can not finish what they agreed to do in a set amount of paid for time?

Long and short is, what they knew, style a tree in 8.5 hours......
One person fully accomplished this. Neat or sloppy, you have to at least cross the finish line to win.

My criteria for styling a tree is based mostly on the styling done on The Bonsai Art of Japan. Mostly restyling, a little easier, less branch selecting, but detail wiring is always complete. With no worries about future development or the health of the tree because a properly styled and cared for tree will live.!

Stacy. Great idea about drawing a picture and leaving it alone!

Capitol F future development. Real TALENT can detail wire without worry of dieback. It comes with every full styling.

I've read that every juniper needs to be fully wired at some point in its life.
That "some point" for these trees with the given criteria was that day!

Stacy. If your talent ever brings you up to Chicago, beers and dogs are on me!
Congratulations on a job completely well done.

Now that it is 3:22 AM. And I am WIRED my fourth cup of coffee, (beat that Amcoffeegirl lol!) Time to read some other threads and check craigslist for free trees!

Sorce

P.s. Smoke. You are definitely nuts! I can hear you yelling about cracking branches! I never thought Id say this to a dude, but if we ever meet, Im going to snap your thong! Lol. Beers and dogs offer stands for you as well!
 
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Hey, with all this said, at the end of the day I am not sorry or
Upset at the way things turned out. The trees that won were
Amazing trees!!! And both Ryan and Vic did anawesome job!!!
They should be proud of their win., I am proud of them, it was tough!!!
They deserve it, they are both really cool people and are both really
Talented. We are just arguing semantics here, and it really at the
End just comes down to the judges just saw something in these
Two trees that they liked more than they did in mine. I'm cool with
That... as Paulh has mentioned it would of been tough to of been
The judges on this one and I personally wouldn't of wanted to do
It!!!

They deserve the due credit that they did an awesome job as well,
And I don't think anyone of them did anything with any bad intent and
Personally I kinda think it is a shame to say that they perhaps did.
I think it all just boils down to personal opinion and art is very subjective
As we all know. The trees that beat me were good trees, It just wasn't
My day. It just happens... I do thank you guys for the support, and would
Definitely encourage anyone newer to Bonsai, who has been doing it
Less than 10 years to seriously consider doing this event!!! It is a wonderful
Experience and how awesome is it that I got to do it, and twice!!!

As I have said, If I could, I would be doing it next year :)
 
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M. Frary

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First and foremost.

Stacy. I was right. It was the hat! I am one to sniff out and condemn a sore loser. There is absolutely nothing here that has you sounding like one. Quite the contrary in fact. Your position (not the rank in the contest, should've been #1) is well accepted.

Two. Peter Tea does not seem the feller to go that route. Paul H made an excellent point. Peter does need to update his blog though. Shame on him for that, lol!

And finally.

If this is a contest to find the next teachers of bonsai.....which to me, comes with the paid for (as a professional) work of coming to style trees for you, I pose this question....

Who would you spend $$$ on?

The guy who can not finish what they agreed to do in a set amount of paid for time?

Long and short is, what they knew, style a tree in 8.5 hours......
One person fully accomplished this. Neat or sloppy, you have to at least cross the finish line to win.

My criteria for styling a tree is based mostly on the styling done on The Bonsai Art of Japan. Mostly restyling, a little easier, less branch selecting, but detail wiring is always complete. With no worries about future development or the health of the tree because a properly styled and cared for tree will live.!

Stacy. Great idea about drawing a picture and leaving it alone!

Capitol F future development. Real TALENT can detail wire without worry of dieback. It comes with every full styling.

I've read that every juniper needs to be fully wired at some point in its life.
That "some point" for these trees with the given criteria was that day!

Stacy. If your talent ever brings you up to Chicago, beers and dogs are on me!
Congratulations on a job completely well done.

Now that it is 3:22 AM. And I am WIRED my fourth cup of coffee, (beat that Amcoffeegirl lol!) Time to read some other threads and check craigslist for free trees!

Sorce

P.s. Smoke. You are definitely nuts! I can hear you yelling about cracking branches! I never thought Id say this to a dude, but if we ever meet, Im going to snap your thong! Lol. Beers and dogs offer stands for you as well![/QUOT

Snapping Al's thong could maybe be called a California Creeper. Like a Virginia Creeper but comes with fertilizer! Wow!
 
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