Kill it or make a bonsai

'kill it' is just an exaggeration, what he really means is, take the initiative or it will never become a good bonsai. Thats how it reads to me, it ties back to what he says on another nursery stock stream. If youre afraid to work on relatively cheap nursery stock, afraid of getting it wrong with mediocre material, again youll never be good at bonsai. he doesnt really mean to go out and kill every tree to find out what its threshold is! im of the belief that folk should cease the initiative and not be afraid to make a mistake or two, I dont buy into this approach of tip toeing through everything and waiting for others to chime in before making a move.
 
'kill it' is just an exaggeration, what he really means is, take the initiative or it will never become a good bonsai. Thats how it reads to me, it ties back to what he says on another nursery stock stream. If youre afraid to work on relatively cheap nursery stock, afraid of getting it wrong with mediocre material, again youll never be good at bonsai. he doesnt really mean to go out and kill every tree to find out what its threshold is! im of the belief that folk should cease the initiative and not be afraid to make a mistake or two, I dont buy into this approach of tip toeing through everything and waiting for others to chime in before making a move.
Agree.
I've killed some of the trees I collected right away by bare rooting and trimming the roots too much. Others I left too much on and now I am struggling to move them from grow box/bed to bonsai pot. Now I know both limits and will adjust according the health of the tree in the particular species. I only feel that comfortable with bald cypress and Mayhaw so far.

We know that also varies from species to species. We can extrapolate but have to stay cautious if we want to keep the tree.
 
Even though he is a celeb maybe Ryan does not know all there is to know.
This is something that he admits often, especially when he is asked a question he don't know the answer. There are sometimes that he states facts based on his experience that could be debatable by other people with a different experience. One of those is that JBP does not air-layer... while difficult, there are a few bonsai growers in Japan and in the US that have done so. One of this individuals that come to mind is Kazuo Onuma.

What’s less conventional is how many pines in the garden get their start: from air layers.

Pine layer

Air-layering a sacrifice branch to create a new pine

Layering sacrifice branches is a common theme in the garden. Onuma considers it wasteful to discard branches when they can jump start the creation of new trees.

Nevertheless, I was surprised the first time I heard Ryan said the "kill it or make it a bonsai", but after being a subscriber for almost 4 years now I understand what he means. As @Shibui stated, you need to understand that there are times that you need to be aggressive with a tree if you want to make it a bonsai. Most times (and I am guilty of this) we take the easy route and are very cautious when working a tree in fear that we will kill it, and we end up doing half the work that needed to be done.

One time that Ryan recommends to go hard on the tree is when moving it from the field (or a strong growing tree in a nursery pot) into a bonsai pot... the tree will never be as strong as it is at that moment, so it will most likely be able to survive the harsh work at that time. He don't believe or recommends bare-rooting a tree that has already been planted on bonsai soil, especially the trees that he says rely on the "shin". I remember a Mirai video where Peter Warren completely bare rooted a big azalea including a thorough root wash on a repot, so they do this when necessary.
 
Well, this is where my lack of experience and the difference in material that i have to work here in brazil may make things different from you guys, my junipers (only 7 of them) are either field grown or straight nursery stock, i don't have the old yamadori junipers that you guys have. But mine exploded with growth after being bare rooted and pruned, and i don't have much problem with pests...

Tropicals are an entirely different beast, like your bald cypress, i can cut most of our natives straight from a 30 ft tall tree to a stump, hack all the roots back and it will just grow from there.
Hey great point. Now that you mention it, I don't know how much you should really even be listening to Ryan Neil. Totally different trees, totally different climates and possibly totally different goals.
 
This is something that he admits often, especially when he is asked a question he don't know the answer. There are sometimes that he states facts based on his experience that could be debatable by other people with a different experience. One of those is that JBP does not air-layer... while difficult, there are a few bonsai growers in Japan and in the US that have done so. One of this individuals that come to mind is Kazuo Onuma.



Nevertheless, I was surprised the first time I heard Ryan said the "kill it or make it a bonsai", but after being a subscriber for almost 4 years now I understand what he means. As @Shibui stated, you need to understand that there are times that you need to be aggressive with a tree if you want to make it a bonsai. Most times (and I am guilty of this) we take the easy route and are very cautious when working a tree in fear that we will kill it, and we end up doing half the work that needed to be done.

One time that Ryan recommends to go hard on the tree is when moving it from the field (or a strong growing tree in a nursery pot) into a bonsai pot... the tree will never be as strong as it is at that moment, so it will most likely be able to survive the harsh work at that time. He don't believe or recommends bare-rooting a tree that has already been planted on bonsai soil, especially the trees that he says rely on the "shin". I remember a Mirai video where Peter Warren completely bare rooted a big azalea including a thorough root wash on a repot, so they do this when necessary.
I am sure we can air layer JBP. George Muranaka's blog details exactly how to do it. Even as a novice, I was able to air layer JBP using instructions I got from George Muranaka's blog.
 
Hey great point. Now that you mention it, I don't know how much you should really even be listening to Ryan Neil. Totally different trees, totally different climates and possibly totally different goals.
Yep. Even with tropicals things are different here. For example, in Vietnam I could hack a Tamarindus indica to stick and regrow both roots and top with relative ease. It's not the case in the US, not even in Louisiana where it is hot and humid.
 
I am sure we can air layer JBP. George Muranaka's blog details exactly how to do it. Even as a novice, I was able to air layer JBP using instructions I got from George Muranaka's blog.
Yes, and Ryan quoted him, but he also said that Muranaka did have minimal success doing so. I read his blog, there was one JBP, I think the nicest of the layers he has on the blog that took a few years and multiple re-scaring for it to be done. The fact that Onuma does this as part of his propagation means there is something Muranaka, and the rest of the people that have failed are missing. I will be attempting one this year, not holding my breath but going to give it a go.
 

'dont be afraid' 'it wasnt super expensive' 'THIS IS HOW WE LEARN'

Even if you buy this piece of spruce and you overwork it and 'kill it' you didnt come away with nothing, you took a step forward in learning how to wire and style a tree, maybe you learnt how to create a deadwood feature, maybe you picked up some valuable design elements. Supposing you kill it, big deal, get another one! Hopefully each time you understand the species a little more, begin to understand its threshold a little more, youll begin to understand how much root is too much to take off in one go and when to draw the line. During the time youve killed a few pieces of crap youve learnt valuable lessons in design, that you might not have learnt if you just sat there and looked at it for a year, afraid to work on it. Its easy to keep a tree alive with a few basic watering skills. But design elements isnt something people pick up easily, there are people here in the hobby 5-7 years and still need to ask someone how to style their tree. Still not able to put their own signature or stamp on it.
 
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I would rather take a little more time to transition the tree from a large nursery pot to an intermediate training pot before the eventual bonsai pot.

I bought that tree for a reason, because I saw something I liked and thought I could make something out of.

Why risk that potential to slam it into a bonsai pot too soon? Once it recovers from the initial move to the training pot, I can still work on that tree and move it more towards being a bonsai until it's ready for the smaller pot. There is no need to rush it.

My thinking is it is better off in the larger training pot until it's fairly well developed because the larger pot allows for some precaution and better recovery with development.

It also gives me time to find the best pot for it when the time comes.
 
Well, we dont have to listen to everything Ryan says do we. End of the day you can make your own rules/choices through experience and trial and error.
 
I would rather take a little more time to transition the tree from a large nursery pot to an intermediate training pot before the eventual bonsai pot.

I bought that tree for a reason, because I saw something I liked and thought I could make something out of.

Why risk that potential to slam it into a bonsai pot too soon? Once it recovers from the initial move to the training pot, I can still work on that tree and move it more towards being a bonsai until it's ready for the smaller pot. There is no need to rush it.

My thinking is it is better off in the larger training pot until it's fairly well developed because the larger pot allows for some precaution and better recovery with development.


It also gives me time to find the best pot for it when the time comes.
Here is my take on this, because it is close to what I am doing with my JBP at this moment.

I do use a training pot or Root Pouch, but one that is close to the size of the final pot for the tree. The tree is stronger when you move a them from basic bones development into ramification, as the roots will have less to support when cut back is done. Both on top and on the bottom. But when you are in development of secondaries and possibly tertiaries, the demand on the roots and the possibility or success diminish. You also need the restriction of the pot in order to slow down the top growth, so if you develop your secondary on an oversize pot, the proportions of the secondary growth may be too large once you move into a smaller one.

Also to consider, the finer roots are the ones that feed the tree. This is where I think that the tree will suffer the most by the steps in reduction.

Here is my hypothesis;

Say you have a tree with a 12" radius root flare, and you want to move it into a 6" bonsai pot at the end, but to be cautious you move it into a 9" training pot, because it is right in the middle. You cut the flare to 7-8" in order to fit into the medium size pot, root ramification starts right at around 6".

Tree recovers for 2-3 years, now you decide to move it into that perfect 6" pot, you now have to cut the roots all the way back to 5", losing almost all the fine roots, and in addition now you have almost a full canopy or ramification that the tree will need to support. What would the tree do? By experience with one of my luma I can tell you that the tree will do seppuku on a lot of those branches, moving you to square zero.

If you had used a slightly deeper 6" pot to begin with, in my opinion the results would had been better. This is why I see people like Jonas developing trees in terracotta pots almost the same size pot they use at the end, but deeper. Sometimes a little oversized, but not to a big margin.
 
I would rather take a little more time to transition the tree from a large nursery pot to an intermediate training pot before the eventual bonsai pot.

I bought that tree for a reason, because I saw something I liked and thought I could make something out of.

Why risk that potential to slam it into a bonsai pot too soon? Once it recovers from the initial move to the training pot, I can still work on that tree and move it more towards being a bonsai until it's ready for the smaller pot. There is no need to rush it.

My thinking is it is better off in the larger training pot until it's fairly well developed because the larger pot allows for some precaution and better recovery with development.

It also gives me time to find the best pot for it when the time comes.
Kinda does back to what was said above. Working on trees and finding out for yourself how much is too much or too little, for any given species. It doesnt really matter that you dont think is a good idea because I can find that out for myself. The fact that you yourself dont really document your projects is even more reason for me to take my own initiative. Thats not a dig at you btw so dont take it personal. So maybe I kill a tree by stuffing it into a bonsai pot too early, next time ill leave a bit more root. Next time ill be better at teasing out rootballs and arranging everything neatly, my skills at creating a flatter root ball will have improved, all from that initial enthusiasm to stuff the tree into a small pot.
 
Some folks in this thread are taking the phrase "kill it or make it bonsai" (henceforth KIOMIB) at face value and no longer engaging with the original idea. People are free to do that, but the original poster asked a very specific and very coherent question about KIOMIB: Assuming we accept that KIOMIB makes sense (not the literal phrase -- the actual idea that is taught), then why not go farther than "repot 1" (exterior) and "repot 2" (shin), why not just bare root and skip over potentially 1 or 2 years of time?

The answer was already given, exhaustively: Sometimes we do in fact do that. I do that with young pines. My field growing mentor does this to (literally) hundreds of pines every year. @trigo , you can absolutely do this -- think of it more like a gradient or spectrum of possibilities than a binary one. In Mirai reckoning, "high-water-mobility tree species" can indeed be bare rooted when making the transition from "material" to "bonsai development". In my own experience and working with field growers and bonsai professionals in Oregon, you can also do this to a variety of species, even sometimes quite large trees. You can get away with some bare rooting of pines at this stage too, especially things like JBP or p. contorta, but likely many others too.

For everyone else: Ryan is not advocating cowboy bonsai. He's advocating making measurable progress on important root system goals in spite of beginners deep-seeded and often unreasonable fear of working with the root system. In Ryan's school of thought, it makes no sense for a student to be fearless in hacking back a canopy through severe pruning while being terrified of working the root system. This is why the catch phrase exists, to push people with an imbalanced approach to overcome that fear and do the necessary root work that's needed in the early stages.

Here is what Ryan is actually saying:

1) To be able to follow any of the rest of the Mirai curriculum ... To ensure that all Mirai students are on the same page horticulturally ... To ensure that Ryan isn't constantly halting an otherwise-productive refinement-stage lectures to answer subscriber confusions that their slip potted pines are dying after trying to do refinement work ... Ryan would appreciate if students would take the following steps, specifically when considering material that has not yet entered the primary development loop:
2) Get their root ball into aggregate soil before ever getting to secondary stages of development
3) Get their whole root ball into aggregate soil before ever getting to secondary stages of development
4) Make measurable progress on working back the roots to domesticate (Mirai speak for "get into aggregate soil") as much of the root system as possible in the "first repot"
5) Later complete that progress by then finally replacing the remaining native/nursery soil in the "second repot" so that the whole root system is now "domesticated" (in aggregate soil).
6) Address this issue early on, in Mirai's "primary" stage of development, not later
7) Study repotting carefully, take a deep breath, mutter the courage-inducing words "kill it or make it bonsai", and do the necessary first repot by working the roots back significantly instead of being a chickenshit who skips this and starts pretending like the tree is ready for refinement, to the tree's detriment.

OP @trigo specifically asked whether steps 4 and 5 can be merged while still arriving at later development stages with all the same preconditions in tact. If y'all wanna engage with the phrase, then go yell at Ryan about how to better rephrase what he's trying to say, but @trigo asked whether we can fuse steps 4 and 5. We can , in some cases. It's a gradient, a spectrum, not a binary decision.
 
I certainly have no problem bare rooting most deciduous trees here. I find it is much safer to get rid of field soil sooner than risk the health of the tree with lots of filed soil in a pot.

This year I am giving a go at producing pre-bonsai from nursery stock maples by trunk chopping while still in the nursery can/soil. Some of the rationale is to take advantage of the existing root system, and another part is thinking that heavily organic soil is probably best for growing out for multiple future trunk chops if you have to do it in a pot.

So do you think I am wrong-headed in my approach? Or perhaps a middle approach, where I cut the roots right after acquisition and put it back in a large pot with a heavily organic mix? I am curious.
 
As an online Mirai student I have used this term a few times mainly during repotting season. The only tree I lost so far was one where I was too careful and didn’t dig through healthy roots address the shin (I missed the rotten stinking mass under the trunk).

So as MaciekA said it is about taking a risk to make big step in the development of the tree to avoid problems later.
 
This year I am giving a go at producing pre-bonsai from nursery stock maples by trunk chopping while still in the nursery can/soil. Some of the rationale is to take advantage of the existing root system, and another part is thinking that heavily organic soil is probably best for growing out for multiple future trunk chops if you have to do it in a pot.

So do you think I am wrong-headed in my approach? Or perhaps a middle approach, where I cut the roots right after acquisition and put it back in a large pot with a heavily organic mix? I am curious.
Again, nursery stock is relatively cheap. Why not just try for yourself? you really need someone to give you the green light, when you can give it a go in your own back yard!
Look at my big belly hornbeam thread, that was left in mostly nursery soil for most of the time I had it, look at what I had achieved in only 3 years of development with it. You can answer your own question with a little research and a little trial.
Go to a nursery, buy a tree in summer, (youve already missed the window for repotting). Chop the hell out of it, its really simple man.

also, learn to read between the lines. Shibui is referring to field soil in this scenario, not potting soil.
 
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Kinda does back to what was said above. Working on trees and finding out for yourself how much is too much or too little, for any given species. It doesnt really matter that you dont think is a good idea because I can find that out for myself. The fact that you yourself dont really document your projects is even more reason for me to take my own initiative. Thats not a dig at you btw so dont take it personal. So maybe I kill a tree by stuffing it into a bonsai pot too early, next time ill leave a bit more root. Next time ill be better at teasing out rootballs and arranging everything neatly, my skills at creating a flatter root ball will have improved, all from that initial enthusiasm to stuff the tree into a small pot.

Just because I don't constantly post my trees doesn't mean I am not working on them. I have been at this a while now and do have a sense of what I can do to a tree so I don't see the need to push the limit. Dead trees = wasted time and money and I prefer not to risk the tree for what? Skipping a couple of years in a training pot vs a bonsai pot?

I just don't feel the need to post pictures when I believe there is no need to, ie not much to show/ progress since the last time. There are reasons why this happens which I wont get into. And I don't feel the need to rush a tree into a bonsai pot or do drastic cutbacks when doing so risks the health of the tree.

I've already been there, done that with stupid mistakes that killed trees and prefer a slower approach. I have trees I've been working on for years that still haven't seen their finish pot yet because I don't feel it's time yet, or I just haven't found the right pot yet, mostly the latter.

Usually the first thing I do to a new tree is repot it. Because if it can't survive that then it won't make it to the development part. That's just how I do things. Someone else might do it differently. Neither is wrong.
 
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In the last two years I've been trimming roots and repotting everything I've bought. Usually the same day I brought them home. About 100 repottings to flat pots. All kind of trees. No failures.
This is the result of a very generous climate and my initial ignorance, but at the same time the reason behind my auto confidence. Also all my trees are fully repotted in lava+akadama wich makes watering them a "no problem"

But as my knowledge growed, I could see all the perils and risks of these operations, and my auto confidence shrinked
And so a month ago I bought this New Zealand tea tree (leptospermum scoparum) in the nursery:

IMG20230417094527 (2).jpg
As usually, I cleaned and made a first styling:

JMK_1669 (1).jpg

Damm, I liked it a lot. For the first time, I had doubts. I made the usual research about the species, but there was not much information about it as bonsai.
As they were not too expensive, I decided to buy two more .
With those two, I applied my usual treatment: Cleaning, styling, bare rooting, root trimming (80%) and repotting in akadama+lava.
This is one of them after the treatment

IMG20230422121434.jpg

But the one I liked the most, was only root trimmed in a 40%, and repotted in a bigger pot, just because I feared the repotting could go wrong.

Today, they looked like this:

IMG20230518175536.jpg
IMG20230518175520.jpg

The three of them are strongly growing, though, the weakest and potentially with more root problems in the future happens to be the one I was more conservative with.

So, at least in my climate circunstances, I agree about "make it bonsai" . Should I live in other part of the world, I wouldn´t be so brave....
 
Go to a nursery, buy a tree in summer, (youve already missed the window for repotting). Chop the hell out of it, its really simple man

Yep, you and one or two others are the ones who have inspired my experiment. We shall see how it goes. At the moment, I have a vine maple and a trident maple going. The trident I chopped from a 15-foot landscape tree in mid-August last year. It sprouted in October, and the young leaves went crispy at first frost. No signs of life until last week when it finally sent buds out of the base of the dead shoot. I will keep it in the enormous 15gal nursery pot for as long as I possibly can, growing and chopping. We will see!
 
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