Kimura Cookie Cutter?

yenling83

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Do you consider Kimura's trees to be cookie cutters? Why or Why Not?
 

greerhw

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You're joking, right.

keep it green,
Harry
 

rockm

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No. I don't think he is. There are some people who see SOME of his trees that way...I think some of them can be seen as kind of formulaic (which is what "cookie cutter" means to me) --removing the triangle of foliage typical of more traditional Japanese bonsai and simply disassociating that green triangle from the trunk (s) -- hanging it in space or over a skeleton of white deadwood.

At its best, however, Kimura's work is stunning.
 
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greerhw

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I would take his worst tree over the best tree in America any day of the week, but then I am biased the way I approch this hobby. The Japanese perfected this hobby, so why mess with a good thing for the sake of change.

keep it green,
Harry
 

yenling83

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I'd really like to hear what Walter Pall would say about this?

Rock-are you saying that you consider the crown's of Kimura's trees as Cookie Cutter? But, everything underneath the crown's are not? But, at the same time you think his work is stunning.
 

Attila Soos

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I would take his worst tree over the best tree in America any day of the week, but then I am biased the way I approch this hobby. The Japanese perfected this hobby, so why mess with a good thing for the sake of change.

keep it green,
Harry
Whoaah, now you are going overboard, Harry.
His worst tree may be worth a couple of thousand $$, at best. On the other hand, the best American tree may top $100,000. I am not sure that you would make that trade, and lose your underwear, in the process.:)
 

rockm

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"The Japanese perfected this hobby, so why mess with a good thing for the sake of change."

Um, that's kind of what Kimura did...messed with the "perfect" paradigm a bit.

And the question wasn't about whether American trees were better, only if anyone considered Kimura's work "cookie cutter." Nick Lenz says Kimura still makes the green triangle, only not over the trunk...
 

greerhw

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Whoaah, now you are going overboard, Harry.
His worst tree may be worth a couple of thousand $$, at best. On the other hand, the best American tree may top $100,000. I am not sure that you would make that trade, and lose your underwear, in the process.:)
You're telling me he has a 2k tree in his garden, I want to buy it, know his email addy. Please indulge me as to who has a $100,000 tree ?
Which one of these suckers is 2K?

http://bonsaijapan.wordpress.com/kimuras/

keep it green,
Harry
 
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Attila Soos

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You're telling me he has a 2k tree in his garden, I want to buy it, know his email addy. Please indulge me as to who has a $100,000 tree ?
Which one of these suckers is 2K?

http://bonsaijapan.wordpress.com/kimuras/

keep it green,
Harry
You said "his worst tree". I assume that means, "the worst tree he has worked on, in his lifetime". It does not mean, the worst tree in his collection, since I am sure that his collection only includes top trees. There are many average trees that he has worked on (I have personally seen a few), and those are not worth beyond a few thousand, probably less.

As to a $100,000 tree, here is an old thread. No point of discussing it again:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2750

A great tree can easily be worth $100,000, but of course, you have to find the right buyer, which may not be easy.
 

october

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I have ben a Kimura fan for a while now....No matter how much I see his work, I am always i nawe of it whenever I see it. Even trees I have seen over and over again.

Harry, the trees on the site you posted are incredible. I have seen them all before, but still stare at them in amazement and with respect.

I remember there was a thread a while ago about who may be the so called "best" in bonsai... A very broad term. However, if you are going on masterpiece like compostions and purely miraculous horticultural feats. It would be Kimura..

I am not only basing this on the surface of what you see... If you have followed Kimuras work..and have seen how he removes a live vein and places it where he wants to grow a whole other tree...or how he gets a conifer that has a few tufts of foliage and is almost completely dead and turns it into a masterpiece, you will see why he is the master horticulturalist..Whether you agree or not with he is the best bonsai artist, is irrelavent and can be opinion based. However, as far as fact, the man is an innovator and the best concerning horticulture and tree anatomy manipulation.

Rob
 

Mojosan

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100k

I have a $100k tree.

Unfortunately for you it is not for sale. :p
 

John Ruger

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Is it fair to say that, at the heart, Kimura's style utilizes traditional japanese forms as the foundation.
 

yenling83

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Is it fair to say that, at the heart, Kimura's style utilizes traditional japanese forms as the foundation.

What does this mean exactly?:) seems like a really nice way of saying, Yah dude I think his style is pretty cookie cutter! :) or maybe not.
 

Attila Soos

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What does this mean exactly?:) seems like a really nice way of saying, Yah dude I think his style is pretty cookie cutter! :) or maybe not.

For the sake of avoiding miscomunication, I think it would be best if you define, in no uncertain terms, what do you mean by cookie cutter.
That's because to me, for instance, cookie cutter means a badly executed tree with no character and formulaic design(formulaic design, by the way, means that each tree has the same pattern: first branch on the right, second on the back, and third on the left, and so forth....and also means that a tree has no notable features).
For others, cookie cutter may mean one of the classical forms, which can be informal upright, formal upright, slanting, cascade, formal broom, etc.

So, it is important to clarify what you mean.

Just to further elaborate, would you call the individual trees in a spruce forest from the Pacific North West, cookie cutter? The reason I am asking is, that from afar, they all may look alike, but they were all designed by nature, without the intervention of man. There is no right or wrong answer here, just a matter or communicating clearly.
 
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John Ruger

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No, it means just as it says, in looking at Kimura's work he uses as a base traditional (ie triangularity) forms and works from that vantage point. What he does after that is his own genius. Is it cookie cutter? No, I wouldn't say that at all.
 

greerhw

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You said "his worst tree". I assume that means, "the worst tree he has worked on, in his lifetime". It does not mean, the worst tree in his collection, since I am sure that his collection only includes top trees. There are many average trees that he has worked on (I have personally seen a few), and those are not worth beyond a few thousand, probably less.

As to a $100,000 tree, here is an old thread. No point of discussing it again:

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2750

A great tree can easily be worth $100,000, but of course, you have to find the right buyer, which may not be easy.
From his personal collection in his back yard (or garden) which ever you prefer. I know of a gentleman that has probably one of the top collections in the US, he hires a full time caretaker and Marco is just one of the masters that work on his trees, he has over 1500 top notch trees, but I am willing to bet he doesn't have a tree worth 100,000 bucks. You can see some of his collection on facebook under Kennett Bonsai.

Here's a link.

keep it green,
Harry

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000680025249#!/album.php?aid=1997&id=100000680025249

keep it green
 
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To answer the question from my perspective.... no.

You can't have cookie cutter when the artist manages to do things which are so distinctive that there is no doubt in your mind who did the work without even knowing.

V
 
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From his personal collection in his back yard (or garden) which ever you prefer. I know of a gentleman that has probably one of the top collections in the US, he hires a full time caretaker and Marco is just one of the masters that work on his trees, he has over 1500 top notch trees, but I am willing to bet he doesn't have a tree worth 100,000 bucks. You can see some of his collection on facebook under Kennett Bonsai.

Here's a link.

keep it green,
Harry

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000680025249#!/album.php?aid=1997&id=100000680025249

keep it green
What about the tree they had in kokofu-ten? The profile photo... I would imagine that one is worth a several dozen gold coins. ;) Not that it reallys matters... you don't care about the money, it's your internal perception of perfection that matters to you. There are trees in the Kimura garden I would decline in favor of the new tree in the Kennett collection... because my perspections differ.... :D

Then again, there are trees in Kobayashi's collection I'd take before nearly any Kimura tree... Because I love what that man does with prunus. But that's a "d" tree and therefore not on your perfection list at all... :D

V
 

greerhw

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What about the tree they had in kokofu-ten? The profile photo... I would imagine that one is worth a several dozen gold coins. ;) Not that it reallys matters... you don't care about the money, it's your internal perception of perfection that matters to you. There are trees in the Kimura garden I would decline in favor of the new tree in the Kennett collection... because my perspections differ.... :D

Then again, there are trees in Kobayashi's collection I'd take before nearly any Kimura tree... Because I love what that man does with prunus. But that's a "d" tree and therefore not on your perfection list at all... :D

V
D trees are something you kill time with while you're saving money for a JBP......:D

keep it green,
Harry
 

yenling83

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For the sake of avoiding miscomunication, I think it would be best if you define, in no uncertain terms, what do you mean by cookie cutter.
That's because to me, for instance, cookie cutter means a badly executed tree with no character and formulaic design(formulaic design, by the way, means that each tree has the same pattern: first branch on the right, second on the back, and third on the left, and so forth....and also means that a tree has no notable features).
For others, cookie cutter may mean one of the classical forms, which can be informal upright, formal upright, slanting, cascade, formal broom, etc.

So, it is important to clarify what you mean.

Just to further elaborate, would you call the individual trees in a spruce forest from the Pacific North West, cookie cutter? The reason I am asking is, that from afar, they all may look alike, but they were all designed by nature, without the intervention of man. There is no right or wrong answer here, just a matter or communicating clearly.
I am not going to define the term Cookie Cutter because much of the purpose in asking this question, is to do what you just asked of me.

John-I'm just joking with you, I know that's not what you meant. :)
 
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