jk_lewis
Masterpiece
Well . . . I suppose there are artists, artists, Artists, Artists and ARTISTS -- degrees of artistry.
Personally, I'd rather look at the works of the latter.
Learning Bonsai
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Well . . . I suppose there are artists, artists, Artists, Artists and ARTISTS -- degrees of artistry.
Personally, I'd rather look at the works of the latter.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Chris,
Most people do not agree what art is...much more what an artist is. It is so vague, most people actually just go along what they are told not really knowing what to look for or appreciate.
As I said, it is my opinion only and feel free to disagree. The people you described (to me) are likely skilled craftsmen than artists. They just honed their skill through the years. Likewise, honing their skill might have brought out the artist within that was always been there all along.
This is a gray area we may never find who is right or wrong. But that doesn't really matter--just sharing MY thoughts and opinion. Something I do more often than anyone here but doesn't make it more correct than anybody's.
thumblessprimate1
Masterpiece
Being the "philosopher" that I am (another topic), permit me to begin with a definition of art. Here are some that I found:
With that an artist might be anyone who dedicates himself to art of some sort such as the art of bonsai. Within an area of art one might say there are categories of people at different levels: pre-artist; one who "desires" to learn the art but has zero technical skill (this person could possibly grow to dislike the art altogether) , novice/seedling level; one who has begun to learn & apply some technique, "air layer"; one who begins sense the "man in the marble",...
Ultimately there's the grand master; assuming he'll live forever, he's a creative genius by birth or by experience or both, and he can create a magnificient bonsai out of something few could identify as potential material. From seedling to finished bonsai. He'll leave you in awe as you see the fine detail of his work.
Hope I added to discussion and didn't digress.
-the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
"the art of the Renaissance"
-works produced by human creative skill and imagination.
"his collection of modern art"
-creative activity resulting in the production of paintings, drawings, or sculpture.
"she's good at art"
"the art of the Renaissance"
-works produced by human creative skill and imagination.
"his collection of modern art"
-creative activity resulting in the production of paintings, drawings, or sculpture.
"she's good at art"
With that an artist might be anyone who dedicates himself to art of some sort such as the art of bonsai. Within an area of art one might say there are categories of people at different levels: pre-artist; one who "desires" to learn the art but has zero technical skill (this person could possibly grow to dislike the art altogether) , novice/seedling level; one who has begun to learn & apply some technique, "air layer"; one who begins sense the "man in the marble",...
Ultimately there's the grand master; assuming he'll live forever, he's a creative genius by birth or by experience or both, and he can create a magnificient bonsai out of something few could identify as potential material. From seedling to finished bonsai. He'll leave you in awe as you see the fine detail of his work.
Hope I added to discussion and didn't digress.
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coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I don't really care whether you refer to a particular individual as an artist or a "skilled craftsman", those are just words. I'll be more than happy to enjoy a painting, sculpture, or bonsai from anyone. I've seen great, moving works from no-names and I've seen completely uninspiring works from those considered to be "artistic masters".
As I noted in my previous comment...it's rare, but there are some who are born with some kind of artistic gift that most of us don't have. If I restricted myself to only viewing works by those individuals, I'd be missing out on a lot of good (and great) things.
Chris
As I noted in my previous comment...it's rare, but there are some who are born with some kind of artistic gift that most of us don't have. If I restricted myself to only viewing works by those individuals, I'd be missing out on a lot of good (and great) things.
Chris
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
lordy
Omono
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
You have to start to wonder what really differentiates someone who is considered a "savant" from the rest of us.
Think about the fairly recent recognition of people with "super memory". If you ask these people about a specific day from the past (say July 28 1981) they'll be able to tell you (1) what day of the week it was, and (2) pretty much everything they did that day...what they wore, what they ate, etc. The question is, do these people store more information than the rest of us? Or, do we all have all of these memories stored away, but most of us don't have the ability to retrieve the information? And can that ability be developed or made possible (with some kind of drug, for example)?
Similarly...do most (or even all) of us have the same innate ability (talent, whatever) to be artistic, but only some of us are able to access it? Or could many of us develop those abilities through hard work?
I don't think it's as clear cut as many would like to believe.
Chris
Think about the fairly recent recognition of people with "super memory". If you ask these people about a specific day from the past (say July 28 1981) they'll be able to tell you (1) what day of the week it was, and (2) pretty much everything they did that day...what they wore, what they ate, etc. The question is, do these people store more information than the rest of us? Or, do we all have all of these memories stored away, but most of us don't have the ability to retrieve the information? And can that ability be developed or made possible (with some kind of drug, for example)?
Similarly...do most (or even all) of us have the same innate ability (talent, whatever) to be artistic, but only some of us are able to access it? Or could many of us develop those abilities through hard work?
I don't think it's as clear cut as many would like to believe.
Chris
tmmason10
Omono
Paul, thank you for sharing the pictures of Boons place. I agree that the caliber of material is high for a US collection. I also agree with the sentiment that seeing trees like that in person may make you realize that some of the material you may have is inferior, or at the least 10s of years away from even being decent bonsai. I'm sure if I went to Japan and saw the Ueno Green Club in person I would probably think about how much I spent on my current collection, an how far off the material is to that of the green club.
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Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Intriguing thought.
My sister-in-law works with kids with autism, ADHD, and other learning challenges and she likened "normal" brains to that of a city road system...with highways, collectors roads, arterial roads, etc. Some autistic kid's brains apparently lack the smaller streets but have more highways. Turn out they can be "geniuses" because of it because they have faster access to information some of us have to use smaller streets to get to.
You may be on to something.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I dont know if its true of other teachers, but people that take classes from a certain teacher seem to become brainwashed by the experience.
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coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Intriguing thought.
My sister-in-law works with kids with autism, ADHD, and other learning challenges and she likened "normal" brains to that of a city road system...with highways, collectors roads, arterial roads, etc. Some autistic kid's brains apparently lack the smaller streets but have more highways. Turn out they can be "geniuses" because of it because they have faster access to information some of us have to use smaller streets to get to.
You may be on to something.
I remember seeing a story about some autistic kids who were "mathematical savants". They could barely interact socially, but you could give them any kind of ridiculous multiplication problem (like 96,254 x 15,116) and they'd come up with the answer in seconds (without using paper/pencil). The interviewer asked one of them how he did it and the kid said that he saw numbers as shapes and colors (I believe), and that the numbers just "fit together" or something like that. Fascinating stuff.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I believe that there is the possibility and that's why sometimes I question people about that experience.
october
Masterpiece
Hi Paul.. This can be a very touchy subject. My reply here is not, in any way, reflected towards you... This type of situation has been something that has bothered me for many years. It dictates that money can be one of the main determining factors on how much credit one will receive for their bonsai. You see it all the time. Someone spends $2000 on a piece of material. Trains it for 2 years and then wins an exhibition. Meanwhile someone who can only afford a $100 piece of material works with it for 10 years might not even place. It all comes down to the final piece or final tree.
If I am reading your above quote correctly, does this say you spent $5000 last week on bonsai? I feel that if one can afford this and is passionate enough about the art, this is great. However, most people that do bonsai cannot spend $5000. Many, cannot even spend $500. At this point, one has to really become knowledgeable to create the best bonsai they can from the material available. I have followed the work of Vance Wood for the last 8 years or so. He buys what he can afford. He takes material that costs $10-$30 and works with it for 10-20 years and makes some very nice bonsai.
I have been in bonsai for 16 years. Even though I tried to put it off, a few years ago, I had to give into the notion that better stock was needed. To me, $500 is still a decent chunk of money, but that was the new rough limit that I set for myself as far as buying trees. I see Boon's trees and other's in his situation and the skill is definitely of the masters level. However, accessibility and monetary situations are playing a big role here, as in all aspects of bonsai. This is just a fact. I do not mind working to develop a tree for years. However, to be honest, I am not into doing the 20 year plan either. I mean, working with a tree that looks decent and continues to improve is one thing. However, 15-20 years before a tree can be shown is not something that I see as fun. We must respect the art and we also must understand that we are not immortal.
Rob
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
And...as is always the case, we must remember that people are doing bonsai for a variety of reasons. At this time I have no desire to show trees, or own world class trees. I enjoy the growing, learning, training process and don't care if it takes 15 or more years. If I stay in the hobby I may feel differently at some point, then perhaps I'd invest in some $5000 trees. I've already ratcheted up the prices I've been willing to pay for stock over the past 3 years...
Chris
jk_lewis
Masterpiece
I may never own a "world-class" tree, and I do like to show. I also have the urge (need!) to make and own after they're made, the absolute best trees I can make -- artistic or not -- and can't imagine wanting anything less. But I will NEVER buy a ready-made bonsai -- even if Boon made it.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Wow. What I take away from all of this is that there people willing to spend money to find out a 5000 dollar tree is better than a 200 dollar tree. Think how much money I saved knowing that for years for free
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I may never own a "world-class" tree, and I do like to show. I also have the urge (need!) to make and own after they're made, the absolute best trees I can make -- artistic or not -- and can't imagine wanting anything less. But I will NEVER buy a ready-made bonsai -- even if Boon made it.
It is beginning to become obvious that my opinion about bonsai is a little more prevalent in the bonsai community than I have been lead or brow beaten into believing. The concept that growing and designing bonsai is more fun and rewarding than owning really beautiful trees from world masters. It is nice to have some really fine artistry to compare your work to and learn from but the real desire is produce that kind of work, not acquire it.
I don't make excuses for the stage of development of my trees they are now, and will always remain, a work in progress. The best thing I can say about them is that they are all my work designed from material many argue as being a waste of time.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
october
Masterpiece
Just to clarify my comment here. I did not necessarily mean "shown" literally. I meant to get a tree to the level of being shown. Meaning little or no wire (for a season), good ramification, nice pot, trained root ball etc. I have only shown 2 trees at 2 shows in 16 years. Showing is not a priority to me. However, getting trees to that stage is.
Rob
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Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Just to clarify things a bit. I have shown trees that I have had in training for only two years and a few for less. I don't think I made mention of having to wait 15 to 20 years before showing a tree that's simple ridiculous that is just an assumption thinking that I do not have the ability to design a tree to look like a bonsai up front.
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