Mastering Bonsai or rather having mastered Bonsai

[PiñonJ]

Hey to All thanks.

Sifu, I like to read, and chew on what I have read ---------------- books obsolete -------- please never.

Michael, one comment I enjoyed came from a Chinese sage/writer back in the 1500's, he thought
Chinese bonsai so cruel, he used to purchase plants and set them free on his estate.
Imagine how much land he must have had.

@Bolero , have had the Koreshoff since it came out, thank you though.
Same for the Classical Bonsai of Japan.
Plus quite a few unheard of Chinese versions of their Classical Bonsai.

@PiñonJ and @Bonsai Nut ,

now you see, this is where K's training and knowledge, alters my view of a student presently teaching.

First question would be how many trees from seed / cutting has this guy done, and brought to realized Design ?

If he were a Fine Artist, he would expected to go off and clear his mind for 3 to 5 years, and think out
what he was taught, to become his own person.

With Bonsai it would be probably 10 years.

When someone is taught in an Atelier, Florence or US, he gains the ability to simply look and understand.
It is rare that the visual has to be explained.
Like Sifu's fish hook technique.

So Master Neil would be expected to go and practice, to become himself.

Hence the preference for books by folk who have been doing for 50 years +

It is a Fine Art practice, being extended to a practice [ Bonsai ] trying to become a Fine Art.

We keep looking for those who have mastered Design, which is the Art part.

So books are more important than students teaching.
Thanks again to All.
Any sages of miniature trees out there ?
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony, Ryan Neil has definitely moved beyond what his master taught him, applying the immense foundation of knowledge he gained from him toward developing a North American style, inspired by wild trees. In the apprentice system, you are expected to teach as part of your training. As in medicine, once you've mastered a skill, you're expected to teach it to others, and even when you're done with your training, the learning (and the teaching) never stops.

 

[Paradox]

I'll second Bill's book. It's very good.

 

[M. Frary]

sorry Mike, you should know me well enough by now, and K, we try to help, and help
sensibly

I do know you 2 well enough by now.
And you probably know me well enough by now too.
And I was being the smart ass.
I've been thinking about doing a live stream on it. Kind of like Mirai Live.
Take all questions and give the kind of answers that leave them thinking"did he just say that?"

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Take all questions and give the kind of answers that leave them thinking"did he just say that?"

You could be "The Bonsai Cynic":

"You can try it, but... it'll never work!"

 

[M. Frary]

You could be "The Bonsai Cynic":

"You can try it, but... it'll never work!"

Oh no. Not just for bonsai,but everything. I have all the answers just some aren't what most people look for.

 

[Cadillactaste]

So folks, you look for people who have been doing bonsai for say 50 years and
the trees are healthy and designs impressive.

Do they write books on Bonsai ?

Imagine what they could share...........................

Rereading what you wrote...I don't understand your reply. Was this post more of a riddle me this sort of post?

@Bolero,

K is Khaimraj [ IBC old member ] brother in law, Fine Artist and the one who designs the trees
down here, as I only weed and water. Growing trees since 1980 or so.
Visited the old Bonsai folk on your side and Italy / UK back in the 80's.
He also teaches [ for free ] Bonsai / Penjing techniques to those who have a true interest.

There is a small group down here who have been doing Bonsai since 1970/1980, plus
the Chinese who came to Trinidad since 1870 or so and were willing to share [ very rare ]

Both K and I are part Cantonese Chinese, and we have Chinese mixes from all over China
on the island.

Trinidad is a well blended island European / Middle Eastern / Indian / Chinese / Japanese
and of course Amerindian.

@M. Frary and @Paradox ,

sorry Mike, you should know me well enough by now, and K, we try to help, and help
sensibly.
Folk down here are not rich and everything save for the trees would have to be imported,
Hence the research into local trees and techniques for thickening trunks by colander ground growing
on tiles for radial root in needed.

@Cadillactaste ,

been politely dancing around this,

[1] Two points, a Fine Artist would not not really meed design technology, an Old Master painting
such as one by Titian, is a good deal more complicated than a Bonsai.

[2] Jim Lewis and K are both old folk off of IBC. If you find the IBC archive in the wayback machine.
You could read and understand.

Thanks a million for offering information.
Good Day
Anthony

I don't visit the IBC forum. Tried but found it confusing and not frequented as often. So sorry... I won't be. Checking archive over there. This is the only forum I use frequently. I have basically two groups I post on that are Facebook groups dealing with bonsai.

Assuming Jim and K may butted heads along the way...I know Jim and I had. But...things that he said stuck in the way he went about it. So for that I'm great grateful he took the time to do so.

 

[twisted trees]

@Paradox,
As I have typed before, Bonsai here are grown more for inspiration / peace of mind and so on.

Nothing to do with exhibition or showing off.

I don't exhibit to show off. I am artist to my soul. Exhibiting allows me to share my art with others and to appreciate and learn from other art. It's hard to explain but when I involve others in my art it brings me satisifaction.

 

[twisted trees]

Anthony, Ryan Neil has definitely moved beyond what his master taught him, applying the immense foundation of knowledge he gained from him toward developing a North American style, inspired by wild trees.

Dan Robinson must be laughing his ass off.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I don't exhibit to show off. I am artist to my soul. Exhibiting allows me to share my art with others and to appreciate and learn from other art. It's hard to explain but when I involve others in my art it brings me satisifaction.

For me if I show my trees anywhere it causes me to really think about them and get them in the best possible condition. I want them to look as good as they can look - while still knowing that no tree is perfect.

 

[PiñonJ]

Dan Robinson must be laughing his ass off.

I never said Ryan was the only one with that vision, but he is certainly a major contributor and promoter of the movement.

 

[Anthony]

@Cadillactaste ,

Darlene, Jim and K got along well, and shared information.

When someone reaches a point in a situation where everything becomes as breathing
their response in the topic changes.

The head, the heart and the hand. [ Knowledge, Feeling and Technical ]
In Fine Art, first it is technique, the search for the perfect way. The hand
Then as the hand relaxes the head takes over, and finally the two combine to give the heart.

Same happens in Bonsai --------- called Health and Design.
Save I am honestly not sure just how much a tree's design can affect or rather go to the depth of
emotion, as an oil painting can.
K tells me he doesn't use as many brain cells in Bonsai.

Anyhow, anyone growing Bonsai for say 50 years, should / would be as breathing.
Effortlessly and then the mind moves onto other.
It is the other that is being searched for.............................
Good Day
Anthony

 

[LanceMac10]

Anthony,

Have you seen my latest book: Classical Bonsai Art– A Half Century of Bonsai Study, The Creations and Passion of William N. Valavanis? It was published five years ago and is technically out of print, but I still have a few copies available. http://www.internationalbonsai.com/page/1442819
View attachment 153070

BEST. EVER. BIBLICAL.

 

[Dav4]

I don't exhibit to show off. I am artist to my soul. Exhibiting allows me to share my art with others and to appreciate and learn from other art. It's hard to explain but when I involve others in my art it brings me satisifaction.

I love this and agree with it's sentiment whole heartedly, though I suspect Anthony will disagree with your use of the word "artist". Hey, at least you and I get to do more then water and weed trees somebody else designed.

 

[Anthony]

Nope, sorry @Dav4 ,

no disagreement there.
And I have no problems just watering and weeding, I get to think.

Now was that a try at getting an argument?
Enquiring minds would love to know............................

Have a great day Dav4
Now for some serious weeding
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Dav4]

Nope, sorry @Dav4 ,

no disagreement there.
And I have no problems just watering and weeding, I get to think.

Now was that a try at getting an argument?
Enquiring minds would love to know............................

Have a great day Dav4
Now for some serious weeding
Good Day
Anthony

Nope, not at all. I honestly avoid arguments at this point in my internet career. Still, I have found your viewpoints on art and bonsai in its totality as a hobby, art, and profession, as expressed here, to be very restrictive to say the least. I found your comments "only watering and weeding" to really highlight the difference your approach to and experience in bonsai is compared to almost everyone else, excluding first year apprentices in Japan.

 

[Anthony]

@Dav4 [ a play on Rav4 by any chance ?]

As I explained I like to read and I often read at Universities and thus often more deeply.
The approach to Bonsai, is simply because the views down here are closer to the original
Chinese scholar approach to the growing of these trees.

For relaxing the mind and inspiration, not exhibition or trying to turn them into Art Forms,
because they outgrow the designs and thus why the research has turned to Holograms.
So that the design can be presented more along the lines of an oil painting and stand
as an example of excellence for let's say an eternity.

Hey, we water by hand, and it allows a very personal connection to each plant.
Weeding gives you chance to really observe what is happening to the plant.
The idea behind looking after something is simply ------- Love.
Making the soil, the pots, even the tools represent personal effort.
Growing from seed /cutting, to do from the very beginning is also a sign of deep Love.

We throw it out as being cheap, but anyone able to - See -- will tell you that is the
highest level of dedication to what you are doing.
It is just easier to satisfy Joe Average by saying ---------- we are cheap.[ Where is Mike for
the BS answer ]

Common sense ------ creating a Yi Xing type pot requires science and art.
Clay is found, cleaned, and processed. Often samples pre-fired to determine contractions,
so you end up with the shape designed to the inch or cm if you prefer.
Glazes are designed to fit expansions, and designed from scratch, not bought in a
jar.
Just to give that tree it's special home.
And the pots are hand built, not wheel turned.

So yeah, we are different and restrictive, if you want to think so.

We also do metal and jewellery casting, metal tools are a breeze for Bonsai.

2 years time it will be 41/40 years in the Hobby and teaching for free.
Still have the earlier efforts, you have seen some of them.

Hope that helps.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Cadillactaste]

@Anthony ...you water...and weed...and read. You have An appreciation of bonsai and seem like one who admires art...who can offer a good art critic no? No offense...but, it is solid of you to be open and upfront. You propagate from seed...

Watering and horticultural aspects are an important part of keeping bonsai healthy. But...that you don't wire, or design. Have you never had an incling for said avenue of the hobby at all? Just curious...

 

[twisted trees]

@Dav4 [ a play on Rav4 by any chance ?]

As I explained I like to read and I often read at Universities and thus often more deeply.
The approach to Bonsai, is simply because the views down here are closer to the original
Chinese scholar approach to the growing of these trees.

For relaxing the mind and inspiration, not exhibition or trying to turn them into Art Forms,
because they outgrow the designs and thus why the research has turned to Holograms.
So that the design can be presented more along the lines of an oil painting and stand
as an example of excellence for let's say an eternity.

Hey, we water by hand, and it allows a very personal connection to each plant.
Weeding gives you chance to really observe what is happening to the plant.
The idea behind looking after something is simply ------- Love.
Making the soil, the pots, even the tools represent personal effort.
Growing from seed /cutting, to do from the very beginning is also a sign of deep Love.

We throw it out as being cheap, but anyone able to - See -- will tell you that is the
highest level of dedication to what you are doing.
It is just easier to satisfy Joe Average by saying ---------- we are cheap.[ Where is Mike for
the BS answer ]

Common sense ------ creating a Yi Xing type pot requires science and art.
Clay is found, cleaned, and processed. Often samples pre-fired to determine contractions,
so you end up with the shape designed to the inch or cm if you prefer.
Glazes are designed to fit expansions, and designed from scratch, not bought in a
jar.
Just to give that tree it's special home.
And the pots are hand built, not wheel turned.

So yeah, we are different and restrictive, if you want to think so.

We also do metal and jewellery casting, metal tools are a breeze for Bonsai.

2 years time it will be 41/40 years in the Hobby and teaching for free.
Still have the earlier efforts, you have seen some of them.

Hope that helps.
Good Day
Anthony

Dude,I do all of that and create art as well. Doubly delicious!

 

[Anthony]

@darlene,

at Art I suck big time. However to compensate I did take art appreciation classes. Lots of them.
Love Old Master work and Pre-Raphaelite work.

We don't need to wire [ though it was done for a few years back in the 80's until Wu Yee Sun's book
became available. Lignan - Grow and Clip ]
Remember the skills were jumped in the 80's by visiting bonsai folk in US/UK and Italy.

Hey, I don't mind, I get to do the soil microbes, the soil and soon the power for big cold room for some more
temperate zone trees ------ as long as they can handle under 90 deg.F in Summer .
I can trim to tidy, repot, but just not design.

Remember also the designs precede the seed germination.
Once a tree is understood, it is shifted to the Design and then germinate the seed.
It is a little game K likes to play with himself.
I can prune just by looking at his designs. Just can't really create the Design.

I can also build by slab pots from K's designs, once again I can't design anything more than a rectangle.
Brain functions more with science and being tidy.
But I get the same benefits K does, the trees allow me to think.
Hope this helps.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

@darlene,

at Art I suck big time. However to compensate I did take art appreciation classes. Lots of them.
Love Old Master work and Pre-Raphaelite work.

We don't need to wire [ though it was done for a few years back in the 80's until Wu Yee Sun's book
became available. Lignan - Grow and Clip ]
Remember the skills were jumped in the 80's by visiting bonsai folk in US/UK and Italy.

Hey, I don't mind, I get to do the soil microbes, the soil and soon the power for big cold room for some more
temperate zone trees ------ as long as they can handle under 90 deg.F in Summer .
I can trim to tidy, repot, but just not design.

Remember also the designs precede the seed germination.
Once a tree is understood, it is shifted to the Design and then germinate the seed.
It is a little game K likes to play with himself.
I can prune just by looking at his designs. Just can't really create the Design.

I can also build by slab pots from K's designs, once again I can't design anything more than a rectangle.
Brain functions more with science and being tidy.
But I get the same benefits K does, the trees allow me to think.
Hope this helps.
Good Day
Anthony

Wow. This approach to bonsai is pretty much opposite to my thinking. I always thought that bonsai got it's start my the Chinese bringing down the naturally dwarf trees from the mountains.

And later, once the "good" ones had been taken, they began to take the lesser ones, and train them to look like the originals.

The concept of taking a seed, making a drawing of what it will look like in 30 years, and then forcing it into that static image, then saying it's "done"... well... I've never heard of anyone doing bonsai like that.

If that's your goal, why even bother with using a live tree? Make the tree out of wood, clay, plastic, or metal. You say you want a holiscopic image to last forever of the finished design. Shoot, just make a sculpture.