Nursery stock Elm, some basic and some styling questions

[dresdraconius]

I appreciate you all taking your time to help a newbie out. I really do.

I just feel my knowledge in this field is severely lacking. I don't even understand most of what you helpful folks have tried to patiently explain so far.

So I'm off to educate myself a bit more since I believe investing in learning well pays of big dividends in any fields.

I'm off to mirai's education videos and will learn some basics for now.

Thanks again for your time folks.

 

[ConorDash]

I appreciate you all taking your time to help a newbie out. I really do.

I just feel my knowledge in this field is severely lacking. I don't even understand most of what you helpful folks have tried to patiently explain so far.

So I'm off to educate myself a bit more since I believe investing in learning well pays of big dividends in any fields.

I'm off to mirai's education videos and will learn some basics for now.

Thanks again for your time folks.

Through no fault of theirs, people's advice here is discouraging but its how we all start. I got the same treatment when I started not too long ago. Its better in the long run. Just, if you are interested in Bonsai, push through it and get better. You sound like you have the right attitude, just persevere. @Zach Smith 's advice in his previous post was very good. He gave you a step by step on what to do. I'd say follow it if you want to, if you want something else from the tree, you've the challenge of finding out how.

Look up ground layering, its not hard and rewarding to do and get right. Easier than air layering too (setting up of it). That's the starting point.

 

[BobbyLane]

Through no fault of theirs, people's advice here is discouraging but its how we all start. I got the same treatment when I started not too long ago. Its better in the long run. Just, if you are interested in Bonsai, push through it and get better. You sound like you have the right attitude, just persevere. @Zach Smith 's advice in his previous post was very good. He gave you a step by step on what to do. I'd say follow it if you want to, if you want something else from the tree, you've the challenge of finding out how.

Look up ground layering, its not hard and rewarding to do and get right. Easier than air layering too (setting up of it). That's the starting point.

how some start

 

[sorce]

Through no fault of theirs, people's advice here is discouraging but its how we all start.

seems discouraging

 

[Mycin]

Always a fan of roots first!

I thought that the size of the rootball is a primary factor in the rate of growth, all other things equal. Wouldn't a chopped tree experience more growth with an enormous rootball to drive water & nutrients up the trunk?

 

[Mycin]

I appreciate you all taking your time to help a newbie out. I really do.

I just feel my knowledge in this field is severely lacking. I don't even understand most of what you helpful folks have tried to patiently explain so far.

So I'm off to educate myself a bit more since I believe investing in learning well pays of big dividends in any fields.

I'm off to mirai's education videos and will learn some basics for now.

Thanks again for your time folks.

You're on the right track. Allow me to suggest this article:

Developing Informal Upright Trunks for Deciduous Bonsai – Bonsai4Me

bonsai4me.com

Focus on supporting this tree (water, overwintering, etc) until early next year when you can consider chopping lower (or whatever you choose to do). Maybe check out the nurseries again .. many in my area are having clearance sales for the end of the season so you can pick up some bargains to learn with.

 

[MrWunderful]

I thought that the size of the rootball is a primary factor in the rate of growth, all other things equal. Wouldn't a chopped tree experience more growth with an enormous rootball to drive water & nutrients up the trunk?

A deciduous Tree can only move water equal to the foliage mass (transpiration). roots dont really “Drive” Anything up the trunk.

I choose roots first because they need to be developed anyways, and it doesnt make sense to build the top of a tree then come back and layer the base. I would rather the roots have the full time to develop into the proper highly ramified mat.

 

[Mycin]

A deciduous Tree can only move water equal to the foliage mass (transpiration). roots dont really “Drive” Anything up the trunk.

I choose roots first because they need to be developed anyways, and it doesnt make sense to build the top of a tree then come back and layer the base. I would rather the roots have the full time to develop into the proper highly ramified mat.

Respectfully disagree with your first statement. Root pressures are the driving force behind budding out in many deciduous trees after winter and are responsible for the sap flow seen after large cuts. Sugar maples are the classic example.

 

[MrWunderful]

Respectfully disagree with your first statement. Root pressures are the driving force behind budding out in many deciduous trees after winter and are responsible for the sap flow seen after large cuts. Sugar maples are the classic example.

You are right im sure, I but I always figured it was more of a function of the entire vascular system as opposed to the roots specifically.
I shouldnt have spoken in such definite terms.

Either way, I still think that because nebari needs to be developed *anyways* its best to start with correcting the roots.

Even though you might lose a year up front, in the long term you will have a higher quality tree in less time. This is all assuming your goal is developing the best quality deciduous tree in the shortest time.

Would one rather have a great tree after 10 years with terrible nebari, or a great one with amazing nebari after 11?

 

[Zach Smith]

I thought that the size of the rootball is a primary factor in the rate of growth, all other things equal. Wouldn't a chopped tree experience more growth with an enormous rootball to drive water & nutrients up the trunk?

You can work a tree back from a very large specimen to a nice compact bonsai pot-ready specimen by taking advantage of a large root mass - but you can't overdo it. If you don't reduce the root mass after about the second or maybe third round of grow and chop, you'll likely start seeing a lot of root death because there's not enough foliage available to feed them all. You risk losing the specimen altogether. Balance is the key. The tree will always seek to balance above and below-ground growth. If things get too far out of balance for too long, the tree will suffer.

 

[dresdraconius]

Through no fault of theirs, people's advice here is discouraging but its how we all start. I got the same treatment when I started not too long ago. Its better in the long run. Just, if you are interested in Bonsai, push through it and get better. You sound like you have the right attitude, just persevere. @Zach Smith 's advice in his previous post was very good. He gave you a step by step on what to do. I'd say follow it if you want to, if you want something else from the tree, you've the challenge of finding out how.

Look up ground layering, its not hard and rewarding to do and get right. Easier than air layering too (setting up of it). That's the starting point.

Will do. Thanks for pointing the way.

 

[dresdraconius]

You're on the right track. Allow me to suggest this article:

Developing Informal Upright Trunks for Deciduous Bonsai – Bonsai4Me

bonsai4me.com

Focus on supporting this tree (water, overwintering, etc) until early next year when you can consider chopping lower (or whatever you choose to do). Maybe check out the nurseries again .. many in my area are having clearance sales for the end of the season so you can pick up some bargains to learn with.

In the barren suburbia where I live, I have seen that the chopped trees with intact roots (that are in ground) produce a lush exuberant growth. Over a few years they resemble a miniature tree themselves.
Prior to this elm, I dug up a live oak but the digging part was hard and I recovered about1 feet radius of rootball (from the base of trunk). Gave it the chop at right height (thanks for the guidance @Leo in N E Illinois ) That oak sprouted a few suckers but none from the main trunk . This made me cautious and I have decided to retain all the roots until I'm confident the trunk has enough sugar and energy reserves.

Thank you for that article. It is exactly what someone in my situation needs.

 

[dresdraconius]

The only real criteria that makes new roots (from Airlayers) not as good as what may be in the soil, is that they need to grow and bark up. Both these things can happen on a cedar elm before the tree is finished.

So there no real reason to NOT start trees from layers.

If done half well, the top 2 could get your $100back, which IS a little steep, so we best earn it back!

Then ground layer around that bottom flare in the end for your tree!

View attachment 326460

You'll get a good flare from the layers and roots too.

You could have done this with the entire 15ft!

Sorce

I'm starting to understand it now. I regret throwing away10+feet of that tree now.

 

[leatherback]

I regret throwing away10+feet of that tree now.

Part of doing bonsai is also getting comfortable with not layering every branch that you need to cut.

 

[dresdraconius]

Part of doing bonsai is also getting comfortable with not layering every branch that you need to cut.

Nice blog and helpful!

Bonsai layering - Step by step explanation - Growing Bonsai

Air layering is a god technique to improve the nebari or to propagate plants. A step by step manual.

www.growingbonsai.net

 

[Zach Smith]

I'm starting to understand it now. I regret throwing away10+feet of that tree now.

If it was 10+ feet of non-tapering, arrow-straight wood you didn't lose anything. In the time it would take you to build something worthwhile out of that one tree, you can collect thirty or forty in your neck of the woods that have much better potential.

 

[sorce]

regret throwing away10+feet of that tree now.

No regrets ever!

That would have been too much to pay attention to, so much, you end up with 50 peices of shit instead of 5 nice joints.

Never regrets!

Sorce

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

In the barren suburbia where I live, I have seen that the chopped trees with intact roots (that are in ground) produce a lush exuberant growth. Over a few years they resemble a miniature tree themselves.
Prior to this elm, I dug up a live oak but the digging part was hard and I recovered about1 feet radius of rootball (from the base of trunk). Gave it the chop at right height (thanks for the guidance @Leo in N E Illinois ) That oak sprouted a few suckers but none from the main trunk . This made me cautious and I have decided to retain all the roots until I'm confident the trunk has enough sugar and energy reserves.

Thank you for that article. It is exactly what someone in my situation needs.

Keep in mind, oaks and elms are VERY DIFFERENT in their responses to "trunk chopping". Elms are easy, back bud easy and reliably. Oaks have a reputation of being reluctant or at least slow to back bud. Oaks are famous for being slow to develop. You need not have the trepidation with regard to elms that the oak caused you. They are rather different creatures.

 

[MrWunderful]

Keep in mind, oaks and elms are VERY DIFFERENT in their responses to "trunk chopping". Elms are easy, back bud easy and reliably. Oaks have a reputation of being reluctant or at least slow to back bud. Oaks are famous for being slow to develop. You need not have the trepidation with regard to elms that the oak caused you. They are rather different creatures.

My valley oaks might want to have a word with you about that no back budding comment

 

[dresdraconius]

FWIW, its budding with a vengeance. I'm happy.