People say what you can and can’t do to deciduous trees. Here’s photos.

[BobbyLane]

if youre inspired by real trees, you will love this thread. if you want to create deciduous trees with holes, hollows, deadwood etc thats absolutely fine. study these characteristics in nature, take photos.

Big trees that make you say, "It's like a giant bonsai"

Does anyone else walk around and see full grown trees and thin, "Damn, that would be an impressive bonsai if I could shrink it with my shrink ray" Well if you're weird like me, post em!

www.bonsainut.com

study the work of artists like Walter pall, Sebastian sandev, Andriia zokic, Will baddely, Graham potter on youtube

me personally, i like a bit of everything.
the rugged with the smooth.
variety is the spice of life.

 

[leatherback]

im not sure how much skill is involved in healing over a scar tbf. it just comes down to time and a whole load of cut paste.
if you want to heal a scar quickly, stick the tree in the ground and let it run, not much skill involved there.

just healong over. but healing over in a way that it is hard to tell.. I find that if you do not clean the cuts properly you get very ugly scars. If done will, all you see are a few lines on an otherwise smoot bark.

 

[Trenthany]

Looking in the wrong places maybe.

The Fairy Tale Bonsai Style

The Fairy Tale Bonsai Style (FTS) by Walter Pall www.walter-pall.de When the International Bonsai Academy was at Sebastijan Sandev...

walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com

. . .

I am not sure whether that is the aim of bonsai, to replicate existing trees.
The lack of scars, blemished etc on trunks comes from the strive to perfection in Japanese culture I would say. . . Add then doing this with a seedling and over 50 years growing it out: That is a show of dedication, self-constraint, vision and skill.

I just started with Walter Pall! He’s like me from what I’ve seen so far in that he’s often a nonconformist but I haven’t read and watched a lot with him yet. I’ll have to look at more of his stuff!

“ It has been around for well over a thousand years. The ultimate goal of growing a Bonsai is to create a miniaturized but realistic representation of nature in the form of a tree. Bonsai are not genetically dwarfed plants, in fact, any tree species can be used to grow one.” This is a quote from Bonsai Empires website and if you google what is bonsai you’ll find this type of explanation is almost always the definition. Yet most bonsai “rules” people talk about which comes from the traditional aesthetic seem aimed to disregard the natural appearance of the original species.

Dan Robinson disregards the triangles and 1-2-3 system as unnatural and limiting but then says

“Here I must develop and articulate the four principles of Bonsai design and creation which permeate my productions. I call them principles rather than rules just as I prefer the term teacher to master; there is something sinister about "Rules and Masters." My principles of Bonsai are as follows:

1. All trees deserve to have deadwood, and it's best when sculpted and refined to be a value-added element to the tree.

2. All man-made pruning scars are inappropriate and ugly; no dreaded bulls eyes, please.

3. All trees deserve crooked, gnarly, undulating branches.

4. Wire training is essential to bonsai control and design. Try not to encumber a tree with needless wire, use guys and pulls when possible in lieu of heavy wire.”

He doesn’t want man made scars but makes his own scars and interest points. Specifically saying no bullseyes please. Yet Dan was on my mind when I saw at least 5 wild oaks with “bullseyes” in the wild in that same area. At first I was thinking I agreed with him about all trees embracing deadwood, but when you read more of his writing (Seems contradictory to me and he’s a proponent of natural styles of ancient trees and not being limited to the western principles which older bonsai didn’t have.

The point of the original post was to show that almost every tree I encounter in nature has the flaws we’re trying to eliminate. The shots weren’t meant to be artistic, just a bunch a quick shots to show that every tree encountered in a a 300 square yard area had serious “flaws”. I could continue that series of shots across all the hundreds of acres and on every tree except the youngest saplings.

The fact that my idea has stirred up so many countering opinions saying that I don’t understand also helps emphasize my point. The

The point I want to make about my dream tree is that I love the giant spreading live oak clusters where there are three-six oaks spread out arching to the ground with a dome canopy and almost nothing inside except gnarled branches supporting that canopy. I think it would look amazing miniaturized and yet it goes against most principles people follow in modern bonsai.

I just want people to look around them and get inspired by what the trees around them. Remembering that trees struggle and scars and lost branches are part of what gives them character. Think of cascades and windswept trees. If they’re forced into these shapes by the wind and storms and their own weight etc, then doesn’t it stand to reason that they’d have scars from that experience? Especially given that a almost every standing tree around me has a plentitude of scars? Think of cypress where people do jinn on the trunk chops for lightning struck looks. That’s embracing it. Why can’t deciduous growers embrace their scars? Maybe I am wrong and people want their trees to look like they didn’t struggle to get where they are but those scars are something that old trees should collect just like old war veterans. We want our trees to be miniature old growth trees but flawless? That’s an oxymoron to have old growth with no scars. Real trees have them and so do real people.

Here I go with another giant post trying to explain it. I’m gonna buy Dan Robinson’s book just so I can edit all his principles to explain my point next time. Lmao

TLDR real trees have scars, most people say bonsai is about creating miniature replicas from full size specimens through grooming and try to eliminate scars from the process. I disagree. Because all trees have scars and most have deadwood and other “flaws”. Why do we try to eliminate them in our deciduous bonsai?!?!

 

[Trenthany]

Remember Master John Naka? Famous for saying don't make the tree look like a Bonsai. Make Bonsai look like a tree.

This sums up my argument in one sentence. But I’m a noob not a master so I can’t get away with that. I’m gonna just make that quote my signature! Rofl

 

[Trenthany]

if youre inspired by real trees, you will love this thread. if you want to create deciduous trees with holes, hollows, deadwood etc thats absolutely fine. study these characteristics in nature, take photos.

Big trees that make you say, "It's like a giant bonsai"

Does anyone else walk around and see full grown trees and thin, "Damn, that would be an impressive bonsai if I could shrink it with my shrink ray" Well if you're weird like me, post em!

www.bonsainut.com

study the work of artists like Walter pall, Sebastian sandev, Andriia zokic, Will baddely, Graham potter on youtube

me personally, i like a bit of everything.
the rugged with the smooth.
variety is the spice of life.

Oooh more names to google! Thank you! I’ve recently started learning more about Walter and graham, but the other two names are new to me. I may watch them and not know the names though. I will soon if I don’t. I’ll check out the thread I hadn’t found it yet. And if you ask around I’m getting a name for resurrecting old threads!

And last because it’s most important thank you for the acceptance of out of the box thinking. I don’t necessarily want all that but if it happens to my trees then that is what Happened to my trees and I will work with they give me. As much as I’m forcing the trees to bend to my will I also have to accept the way they grow and work with them too.

 

[BobbyLane]

SandevBonsai - 2018. Bonsai sessions with Walter Pall

Dear all... here, I will be posting a series of videos of tree discussions with our unique and inspirational international master Walter Pall hope you will enjoy the content ...be inspired and learn a lot I am very thankful that I had the opportunity to listen to this man for days and hours...

www.bonsainut.com

you seem pretty enthusiastic about what you want to do, good luck.

 

[BobbyLane]

check out Potters work

 

[Trenthany]

check out Potters work

He just got added to my list! Thank you! I love that he is embracing his deadwood and can’t wait to see that tree grown out. I’m going to see if I can see it later since that video is from 2011.

 

[leatherback]

Why do we try to eliminate them in our deciduous bonsai?!?!

Because it takes skill to do so. The ultimate display of skill is to grow something that looks as if no work was done to it.
A scar is a cut hidden poorly.

I see so often when people start off they start by refuting the rules/guidelines/principles shouting "that is not what a tree looks like". And a few years later, the only outcome is something ugly or unhealthy.

This sums up my argument in one sentence.

I am not sure you understand what he was getting at though. It is not a free-for-all statement.

//

Most of the rules and guidelines are based in esthetics: Pleasing lines and ratios, the translation of age in the shaping and lines of canopies. Or they are based in health: Deadwood on deciduous trees is a way to get decay in your trunk and your tree will decline in health, dying after 30 years instead of 300 years; the "triangle" shape allows for light inside a canopy at all levels, and helps create light branches on the top, heavy branches lower down.

The Japanese have been doing this since our middle ages. The basic rules in bonsai were not created because they never looked outside. They are formed due to experience and the drive to create perfection. And even here.. Wabi Sabi.. The greatest perfection comes from imperfection. But then done right. Not an ugly botch job "because that is what nature does". And for all the guidelines, there are excellent examples of how a well-performed exception reaches the peak of the art. Look at this post, which I stole from the bonsai society of greatest louis facebook site looking for an example. Prunus Mume is known to have deadwood that can last a very long time, and the species is capable of blocking decay into the healthy parts of the tree and are as such long-lived and rugged looking. This one made it to one of the most prestigious exhibitions in the world:





"Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them as an artist" - Pablo Picasso.

So learn how to apply the techniques, understand the reason behind certain rules/guidelines. That will help you understand what is done, why. And what the consequences are when you decide to take another route.

 

[Trenthany]

Because it takes skill to do so. The ultimate display of skill is to grow something that looks as if no work was done to it.
A scar is a cut hidden poorly.

I see so often when people start off they start by refuting the rules/guidelines/principles shouting "that is not what a tree looks like". And a few years later, the only outcome is something ugly or unhealthy.


I am not sure you understand what he was getting at though. It is not a free-for-all statement.

//

Most of the rules and guidelines are based in esthetics: Pleasing lines and ratios, the translation of age in the shaping and lines of canopies. Or they are based in health: Deadwood on deciduous trees is a way to get decay in your trunk and your tree will decline in health, dying after 30 years instead of 300 years; the "triangle" shape allows for light inside a canopy at all levels, and helps create light branches on the top, heavy branches lower down.

The Japanese have been doing this since our middle ages. The basic rules in bonsai were not created because they never looked outside. They are formed due to experience and the drive to create perfection. And even here.. Wabi Sabi.. The greatest perfection comes from imperfection. But then done right. Not an ugly botch job "because that is what nature does". And for all the guidelines, there are excellent examples of how a well-performed exception reaches the peak of the art. Look at this post, which I stole from the bonsai society of greatest louis facebook site looking for an example. Prunus Mume is known to have deadwood that can last a very long time, and the species is capable of blocking decay into the healthy parts of the tree and are as such long-lived and rugged looking. This one made it to one of the most prestigious exhibitions in the world:



View attachment 313722

"Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them as an artist" - Pablo Picasso.

So learn how to apply the techniques, understand the reason behind certain rules/guidelines. That will help you understand what is done, why. And what the consequences are when you decide to take another route.

I was actually about to say something about this! I’m not advocating for the acceptance of all scars, sometimes the expression of a scar is unsightly. I’m saying that many if not most people seem to think deciduous bonsai shouldn’t have visible scarring. For the health of the tree some things will have to be eliminated of course.

I’m also not trying to advocate throwing the “rules” of bonsai out the window and not having structures to the art form that are accepted as general practice and part of the traditional aesthetics. I merely want to broaden people’s thinking and see what may come from it. I want people to look at their tree and say that funny knot or scar that they might work out of the design can stay because it doesn’t make the tree look ugly it draws the eye to the trunk. I’m not advocating for only natural looking trees, I’m trying to say that trees need not look unnatural.
An old mature tree doesn’t usually have a triangle because it doesn’t need it anymore. It’s well established branches are already ramified (or not as the case may be) and it’s growth is at the tips of the branches. Triangles are a young trees tactic and if I am not mistaken is partially caused by the limits imposed by the principles of most western style bonsai the 1-2-3 means you need that shape more than if you grew a more three dimensional tree with more branching. This will require a lot of planning to develop the tree so you can appreciate the branching and trunk you’ve worked so hard to develop.

I guess my thought is more along the lines of Alexander McQueen when he said, “You’ve got to know the rules to break them… That’s what I’m here for – to demolish the rules but keep the tradition”

His style is avant-garde and although I appreciate his thinking I don’t want to do avant- garden bonsai, that apricot was amazing, and maybe it’s not avant-garde but It still doesn’t stir my heart. It is impressive to me in a technical sense and I’m curious about how they achieved the effects but I’m also not interested in replicating it.

I want to expand people’s thinking on what is and isn’t bonsai, and just like good bonsai I know this will take many years and careful work to show off its best features. I wish I could instantly demonstrate what I can see in my mind so that you could see the beauty I have floating in my mind but I can’t convince you with words and it’s not my purpose to “convince” you. I will have to just keep learning all the “rules” (I agree with Dan Robinson here, rules is a bad word which is why it’s always in quotes) until I can produce a beautiful tree that ignores those rules in favor of being in itself beautiful.

 

[johnbaz]

Hmm, Deciduous trees are my fave- Especially Acers!

I have a 60' Oak (Quercus robur) at the bottom of the garden, Anyone know where I can get a 12' oval dish in green please??

John

 

[BobbyLane]

I was actually about to say something about this! I’m not advocating for the acceptance of all scars, sometimes the expression of a scar is unsightly. I’m saying that many if not most people seem to think deciduous bonsai shouldn’t have visible scarring. For the health of the tree some things will have to be eliminated of course.

I’m also not trying to advocate throwing the “rules” of bonsai out the window and not having structures to the art form that are accepted as general practice and part of the traditional aesthetics. I merely want to broaden people’s thinking and see what may come from it. I want people to look at their tree and say that funny knot or scar that they might work out of the design can stay because it doesn’t make the tree look ugly it draws the eye to the trunk. I’m not advocating for only natural looking trees, I’m trying to say that trees need not look unnatural.
An old mature tree doesn’t usually have a triangle because it doesn’t need it anymore. It’s well established branches are already ramified (or not as the case may be) and it’s growth is at the tips of the branches. Triangles are a young trees tactic and if I am not mistaken is partially caused by the limits imposed by the principles of most western style bonsai the 1-2-3 means you need that shape more than if you grew a more three dimensional tree with more branching. This will require a lot of planning to develop the tree so you can appreciate the branching and trunk you’ve worked so hard to develop.

I guess my thought is more along the lines of Alexander McQueen when he said, “You’ve got to know the rules to break them… That’s what I’m here for – to demolish the rules but keep the tradition”

His style is avant-garde and although I appreciate his thinking I don’t want to do avant- garden bonsai, that apricot was amazing, and maybe it’s not avant-garde but It still doesn’t stir my heart. It is impressive to me in a technical sense and I’m curious about how they achieved the effects but I’m also not interested in replicating it.

I want to expand people’s thinking on what is and isn’t bonsai, and just like good bonsai I know this will take many years and careful work to show off its best features. I wish I could instantly demonstrate what I can see in my mind so that you could see the beauty I have floating in my mind but I can’t convince you with words and it’s not my purpose to “convince” you. I will have to just keep learning all the “rules” (I agree with Dan Robinson here, rules is a bad word which is why it’s always in quotes) until I can produce a beautiful tree that ignores those rules in favor of being in itself beautiful.

check out the, when is a broom not a broom thread. i posted a whole lot of trees by Will baddely on there among loads of others you might like.

 

[Adair M]

Remember Master John Naka? Famous for saying don't make the tree look like a Bonsai. Make Bonsai look like a tree.

Master Naka also is the author of Bonsai Techniques I, which has a very precise depiction of “the rules”. Here are a couple pages:





There are lots of contradictions in bonsai. Dan Robinson’s “principles” are no better than Naka’s or Walter Pall’s, nor Kimura’s. His recomendation of not using wire to shape is silly. It’s just a tool.

there’s lots of ways to style trees, and trees can be styled in many ways.

“It depends...”

 

[penumbra]

I want to expand people’s thinking on what is and isn’t bonsai, and just like good bonsai I know this will take many years and careful work to show off its best features. I wish I could instantly demonstrate what I can see in my mind so that you could see the beauty I have floating in my mind but I can’t convince you with words and it’s not my purpose to “convince” you. I will have to just keep learning all the “rules” (I agree with Dan Robinson here, rules is a bad word which is why it’s always in quotes) until I can produce a beautiful tree that ignores those rules in favor of being in itself beautiful.

I appreciate what you are saying but thousands of others have said it before. You are not breaking new ground.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I am weary of the thread which is beginning to resemble a re-make of a classic movie.
Take a deep breath and slow down.
Tortoise beats the hare.

 

[BobbyLane]

"Has anyone done a natural spreading to the ground of a cluster? Does anyone know of one? This is the image that’s anti-bonsai that I want to miniaturize. I love live oaks like this!"

i didnt want to clog Markeys threads so answering your question here


you can find trees like this all over. i saw Will baddely attempt this with an English elm, it had a very thick low branch that he purposely broke so it laid flat on the soil, scraped the bottom side of it to encourage it to root, like what happens in nature, here's an example

you can see where some type of trauma has cause this branch to split from the trunk its still live and growing looks a little weak though, probably not the best example
IMG_4656 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

IMG_4658 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr

this is an oak tree in the isle of wight called the dragon tree, interesting story behind it

Dragon Tree, Brighstone, Isle of Wight
With its huge snaking boughs, the Dragon Tree of Brighstone is a sight to behold. One massive limb forms a bridge over the Buddle Brook below, which used to power the nearby Brighstone mill until it closed in the 1960s.

It’s thought the oak took its unique shape after it was blown down in a storm, but, still supported by its existing branches, managed to re-root.

Local legend, however, holds that the tree was once a dragon that terrorised the locals. A knight fought the beast. When he struck the fatal blow, the dragon turned to wood.


if you can get hold of a few bits of yamadori, then anything is possible tbh. i think it will be difficult to take certain features from these trees growing from seed though.

 

[Colorado]

The fact that my idea has stirred up so many countering opinions saying that I don’t understand also helps emphasize my point.

I hate to burst your bubble, this this is not even a remotely original idea. Deciduous bonsai with deadwood.

 

[penumbra]

It is the natural growth habit of old growth American Beech.

 

[Dav4]

Anybody remember Andy Rutledge and his webbook, Artistic Foundations of Bonsai Design? The internet web link is no longer valid. Anyway, Rutledge did a fantastic job breaking down the different types of bonsai- not styles, mind you- and it was far and away my favorite read on why we style trees in a particular way.

 

[Trenthany]

Master Naka also is the author of Bonsai Techniques I, which has a very precise depiction of “the rules”. Here are a couple pages:

View attachment 313725

View attachment 313726

There are lots of contradictions in bonsai. Dan Robinson’s “principles” are no better than Naka’s or Walter Pall’s, nor Kimura’s. His recomendation of not using wire to shape is silly. It’s just a tool.

there’s lots of ways to style trees, and trees can be styled in many ways.

“It depends...”

These are scalable and very useful. I like them especially for formal up fights but what I’m talking about I can’t find a bonsai example of. It would disregard most of this lol. It’s interesting maybe I can go see if I can get seedlings and photos from the ones I’m interested making a miniature version of this afternoon.

The contradictions are my point. Not many of the rules were based around deciduous design it seems. As a base I can see the applicability As a way to maintain proportions that are pleasing to the eye but not all designs that are pleasing fall into the principles espoused by various teachers and bonsai enthusiasts. Actually mostly enthusiasts. Most teachers I’ve seen videos of are more accepting when they do a video with something of differing design.

 

[Trenthany]

Anybody remember Andy Rutledge and his webbook, Artistic Foundations of Bonsai Design? The internet web link is no longer valid. Anyway, Rutledge did a fantastic job breaking down the different types of bonsai- not styles, mind you- and it was far and away my favorite read on why we style trees in a particular way.

I’ll check amazon and if not it may be digitized in google books scanned areas.