Peter Warren on Satsuki.

Deep Sea Diver

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Hi All,

I agree with almost all of this post, except the above quote makes me want to comment. Perhaps the other books on satsuki you've read are cookie cutter, but there are a number of others I've read that aren't.

To name a couple on my shelf that I would recommend would be (I do have Fred C. Galles weighty, though, excellent classic too) that might be not cookie cutter would be:
  1. Bonsai Techniques for Satsuki, Naka, Ota & Rokkaku,
  2. secondly: Floral Treasures of Japan, Kennedy - Peter mentioned this book and its pretty good....
  3. and finally a dark horse of a satsuki book that I am in the process of rereading Japanese Satsuki Bonsai, Watanabe.
Another book Peter mentioned, A Brocade Pillow, by Ihei, I would not recommend, unless you were truly interested in a historical overview of all Azaleas of Old Japan and are a true died in the wool azalea geek.

A website I'd recommend is https://satsukibonsai.com/tutorial/ . The only issue is that its in Italian and you'll have to use Chrome to translate it. (I've got this just about finished editing it and perhaps it would be ok to post this in the reference material if its not already there with a link back to the source site @bonsainut?)

The biggest issue I've found is that any one of these books alone IMO are not comprehensive enough for me. But I'm only a couple years into this hobby and need more time to figure what that actually means?

Best to All,
DSD sends
Well said. I would also note Callaham’s book on Satsuki. From a technical/horticultural perspective, it’s probably the seminal Satsuki resource.
Creech’s commentary and intro to the ‘Brocade Pillow’ translation are the worthwhile part of the book. It’s especially helpful in understanding the habitat antecedents and where the original ‘parents’ grew.
[/QUOTE]
Decidedly, good catch! I didn’t want to recommend Callahan as that would put folks out $150 - $495, but so right you are! I also concur about your observation on Creech’s commentary in Brocade Pillow, that information is truly for the deep satsuki state folks. :cool:
Thanks,
DSD sends
 

fredman

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People watched the video and discussed azalea. You rather want your post to have a few views and no replies?
Ah I see what you meant. Thought we buried that horse....but
Apart from one, I appreciate the discussions...It's the way one replies that counts. I appreciate the views and constructive replies, but ultimately it's not about me. What I want most, is for those who the video was made for in the first place (beginners and less advanced) to see it, and hopefully learn something from it.
I have the Callaham book, but sometimes I enjoy relaxing while watching practicals.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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In principle, every branch tip could become a flower bud, but it rarely ever happens. Do any of these books descibe methods that maximize flower bud-set?
Kinda funny, as satsuki books always mention trimming back flower buds of the Satsuki as they are normally really prolific bloomers... so prolific that the many buds interfere with proper blooming due to excess blossums quashing each other. The Japanese have a technique called MESUKI - Removal of buds they follow in the Nov - March time frame to specifically do this.

But to answer the question:
  1. Kennedy mentions that for Satsuki to bloom their very best they need good amounts of sunlight: Morning and if possible, also the last couple hours of the Evening sun. He mentions it is possible to get secondary and tertiary shoots to set given long, mild autumn weather.... extra branch set can = extra buds.
  2. Everyone talks about proper pruning as key to prolific bud formation in one way or another.
  3. Kennedy mentions it is especially important to carry out the pruning of the current year's growth at the proper time (after blooming Jun-July) from 3-5 to 2 to get a rapid production of secondary shoots.
  4. The website Satsuki Bonsai echos this and emphasizes that all the traditional care techniques add up to a great bud set. I think the first two steps of the post-flowering pruning techniques in "Higari" are what Kennedy is describing to maximize bud set. These are: 1. Removal of flowers/ovaries and 2. General pruning to reduce the new branches to two branches with two leaves. (I'm working through the final edit of their Tutorial translation & will post it in resources when I finish soon.)
Galle's book is an overall treatise about azaleas that only mentions sacrificing some flowering as the next years buds are setting.
I don't know what Callahan says at the moment, its in the mail!

Cheers
DSD sends
 

fredman

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So here's the follow up. Bit more hands on
As he says, any style goes. I'm going to make an African savanna flat top tree from one I have in the ground....😉
 
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Mellow Mullet

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Yeah I know him and his trees from long ago. That's not the point about what this is about...is it?
I always had great respect for him, but in this instance his attitude was arrogant and uncalled for.
Also, he don't need you to defend him...so best you stay on your horse.


Ok, you started a thread on a discussion board, or a forum, about a video, but only want comments that go along with what you think? And, those with dissenting opinions get attacked? My opinion was not arrogant, it was just my opinion, and others expressed what I did. What way was different in my opinion that made it arrogant?
 
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KiwiPlantGuy

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Hi,
My previous post was around trying to understand the differences between Satsuki and Kurume and their bonsai potential. Obviously different genetics and the desire to only grow Satsukis is like the gurus on this site only growing Japanese Black Pine and no other pine.
So, I am lead to believe from a guru or 2 on this site that if I don’t let Satsukis flower I get twice the ramification. Or the other version is the “energy” BS makes the plant use it all to flower and not so strong growth after. Am I totally wrong with the idea that I shouldn’t have any flowers for the first 5-10 years to build an Azalea bonsai faster?
Can someone help out here as I am learning lots from this thread?
Charles
 

fredman

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Not that i'll ever have the problem, but i'm interested to know..
In the second video he spoke about this root being to big on the nebari
Screenshot_20200603-212632.png
Said it needed some work done to weaken it. I've not yet heard about that being done. Anyone know how to go about in achieving that?
 

Harunobu

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Hi,
My previous post was around trying to understand the differences between Satsuki and Kurume and their bonsai potential. Obviously different genetics and the desire to only grow Satsukis is like the gurus on this site only growing Japanese Black Pine and no other pine.
So, I am lead to believe from a guru or 2 on this site that if I don’t let Satsukis flower I get twice the ramification.

I don't think anyone here said that That's why I made a large post, in part asking for clarification. What do people mean with 'second flush of growth'? To me, this is wrong. Shoots came from auxilllary buds at the base of the flower. Those shoots could be 1 to 5 cm when you remove the flowers. These first flush shoots aren't going to develop a second flush of shoots from their auxillary buds, giving you a second round of ramification when you remove the flower 1 to 5 cm down the branch. The flower isn't inhibiting dormant auxillary buds. The apical shoots of the (first) flush of growth is.

Or the other version is the “energy” BS makes the plant use it all to flower and not so strong growth after. Am I totally wrong with the idea that I shouldn’t have any flowers for the first 5-10 years to build an Azalea bonsai faster?
Can someone help out here as I am learning lots from this thread?
Charles

The azalea is trying to spend energy to create flowers. You can prevent that energy being spend by pruning, which takes away energy. Are you taking away less than you are saving? I don't think anyone knows. You cannot inject energy into a plant. You can only take it away. And you can redirect it. And to redirect it, you have to take away some energy. How does a plant generate the most energy? You let it grow grow grow uninhibited; sun, water, some fertilizer, and no pruning. Then when you have this very strong growth, you can come in and prune back hard to get the design you want. Exactly as Warren demonstrated in his second video.

What you don't do is: prune a little every spring and then a little bit again every summer, and then prune in autumn to prevent flowering. And doing this every year. Then, take away half the roots and prune some more. And then prune back all the new growth immediately as it gets too long, always keeping your bonsai silhouette. I can't tell you if this will kill a bonsai, yes or no. But this is physiologically not logical to do. And everyone that works on azalea bonsai always goes through cycles of uninhibited growth followed by hard pruning. This makes both physiological sense and gives bonsai people the results they have.

You can't go in with a magical secret trick, like removing the flower with perfect timing, and improve the plants health and vigor by a lot. Plant will try to make flowers. There is no way to stop it without damaging the plant. (Removing the apical tips in september is a form of damage, so is any form of pruning). Once the flower buds are there, yes they will take some energy and water. But no one can tell you exactly how much. So if you feel like, you can remove them. Autumn or spring, neither will confuse the plant. Will it help? Maybe a tiny bit? Will it hurt? very unlikely. Could it speed up growth a bit? Potentially. The leaves underneath the flowers get less sunlight and the flowers evaporate more water than ordinary leaves. This is a marginal discussion, which is why it is not clear what the effect is. Yet to us humans, flowers are important. I have even seen some people say that if the azalea sets seed, it will exhaust the plant and it will flower less or not at all. I can tell you, this is false as well. Does it take extra energy to produce seeds? Has it any meaningful effect? No. Should you remove the flowers so no seed sets on your bonsai? If you can spend the time, then yes. Do seeds set on satsuki bonasi in Japan because the growers there can't pay enough attention to every flower on every plant, to make sure to remove all the flowers/fruits? Yes! Seeds do sometimes set. Are their trees the best? Yes!

Then, for a proper bonsai display. You NEED to remove flowers. There are too many. This is an aesthetic discussion. So it is subjective. But I myself like to see layers of foliage between layers of flowers on an azalea bonsai. If you look at displayed bonsai that are highly rated, the flowers are only kept at specific positions on the flower pads. And that decision to remove or keep flowers may even be influenced by the knowledge of how much flowers on a certain branch tend to sport. The more or a traditional bonsai the tree is, the less flowers it will have. Meika style trees often don't have layers and only have flowers removed to create some space. This technique is indeed called mesuki and can be done at any time after all flower buds are set, up to when you display your bonsai. Different cultivar also produce a different amount of flower buds at each terminal bud. So likely, there are too many flowers and they will indeed be pushing into each other. You can see this in my azalea pictures as I do not remove any flowers. So for aesthetic reasons you wan to:
1) Create more space for individual flowers
2) Create (horizontal) layers with foliage space inbetween

And this debate on 'special timings'. Aza;ea bonsai nurseries in Japan have many plants Even if there would be a special timing, there is no practical way for them to hit it because then they would have to remove flowers, or repot, or prune, all their plants, all the same action, all at the same time. They can't, so they don't. And they have the best trees.
 

Harunobu

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Not that i'll ever have the problem, but i'm interested to know..
In the second video he spoke about this root being to big on the nebari
View attachment 306702
Said it needed some work done to weaken it. I've not yet heard about that being done. Anyone know how to go about in achieving that?

Not entirely sure what he meant, but I think he mean that, counted from the right, the second root is out of proportions thick. (To me both the first AND second, counting from the right, are larger than the third and fourth root.) Since you can't make the root smaller, you would want to keep the too fat one the same, while making the other ones become fatter. Not entirely sure if that's realistic on a styled bonsai azalea in a bonsai pot. But I guess you can try. Did he say he was going to repot this one in the next video? If so, I think he will try to identify the fine roots coming from the root that's too fat, and prune it more than the fine roots of the other exposed roots.
 

fredman

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Ok, you started a thread on a discussion board, or a forum, about a video, but only want comments that go along with what you think? And, those with dissenting opinions get attacked? My opinion was not arrogant, it was just my opinion, and others expressed what I did. What way was different in my opinion that made it arrogant?
TBH i'm glad you responded. I'm feeling stink because I handled the whole thing wrong. In hindsight I should've responded to you and settled my grievance there and then. At the time, I decided to rather put you on ignore than start something that might stink up the thread for others. Thought it would settle it for me....but it didn't.
It's not true that I started this thread and expect things to go my way. I've been in forums for a long time and know how it works.
I'm cooled off now, and think it's only fair to give you an explanation.
At the time i saw your response as over the top....arrogant and looking down on Peter. It shocked and surprised me coming from you, as you're one of the masterpieces I always had the greatest of respect for, while growing up in this sometimes stormy forum. I see it mellowed out substantially lately.
I went all the way from, why would you suffer through it if it wasn't intended for you in the first place (why not just leave, as there's others that don't mind the quality and are gaining from it)...to don't he get it that Peter Warren is new at this, but still brave enough to be putting himself out there for the good of the cause....everybody has to start somewhere. Why take the time to criticise so harshly...I didn't see it as constructive criticism at the time, that's what differed from the others, for me?
Later (to late actually) I realised that we all have our way of expressing ourselves and....we all have our levels and standards.
Also on my side, i'm doing some soul searching. I need to be better at finding that line of being over emotional and reactive in response.
So yeah that's me. All's good from my side, as I see much of it as my fault to... :)
 

Mellow Mullet

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TBH i'm glad you responded. I'm feeling stink because I handled the whole thing wrong. In hindsight I should've responded to you and settled my grievance there and then. At the time, I decided to rather put you on ignore than start something that might stink up the thread for others. Thought it would settle it for me....but it didn't.
It's not true that I started this thread and expect things to go my way. I've been in forums for a long time and know how it works.
I'm cooled off now, and think it's only fair to give you an explanation.
At the time i saw your response as over the top....arrogant and looking down on Peter. It shocked and surprised me coming from you, as you're one of the masterpieces I always had the greatest of respect for, while growing up in this sometimes stormy forum. I see it mellowed out substantially lately.
I went all the way from, why would you suffer through it if it wasn't intended for you in the first place (why not just leave, as there's others that don't mind the quality and are gaining from it)...to don't he get it that Peter Warren is new at this, but still brave enough to be putting himself out there for the good of the cause....everybody has to start somewhere. Why take the time to criticise so harshly...I didn't see it as constructive criticism at the time, that's what differed from the others, for me?
Later (to late actually) I realised that we all have our way of expressing ourselves and....we all have our levels and standards.
Also on my side, i'm doing some soul searching. I need to be better at finding that line of being over emotional and reactive in response.
So yeah that's me. All's good from my side, as I see much of it as my fault to... :)

It is a tough line to find, but once you do, it is easier to keep from stepping over it. Trust me, I know, that is why my initial response was just "wow", until I thought about how to further respond. My "suffering through it" comment was a poor attempt at humor, something that at times I have a tough time delivering, especially when the words are only typed. The comments weren't an attempt to look down on Peter, but I hear his name tossed around a lot and after all the hype, to be honest, I expected more. I stick by the rest of my comments.

I watched the whole video, because unlike him, I did not get any training in Japan and much of what I have learned about azaleas I have done so on my own, most of which I have shared on this forum. I don't post as often anymore as there is not really much commenting anymore, just a bunch of "likes". I was hoping to find one "nugget" of information in the video, which is how I approach all attempts at gaining knowledge. As long as I get one nugget, it was time well spent. Unfortunately, this was not the case with the video. But if someone else finds it useful, that is awesome.

The thing that I find most troubling is the flower removal thing. There is no timing or wasted energy. Remove them when they are finished. I get plenty of growth, three flushes if I have time to prune that much, I could get four, but I stop pruning in late June to keep from removing the next year's flowers. Some of the plants I have had now for 10+ years, I have let them bloom every year with no sign of declining.

I watched the second video, too, it was much put together much better, but will not comment any further.

Anyway, no harm not foul, thanks for taking time to give an honest reply. Now, get some azaleas and put some of that knowledge to use! Take pictures! Show us the flowers!
 

Deep Sea Diver

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So, I am lead to believe from a guru or 2 on this site that if I don’t let Satsukis flower I get twice the ramification.
Or the other version is the “energy” BS makes the plant use it all to flower and not so strong growth after.
Am I totally wrong with the idea that I shouldn’t have any flowers for the first 5-10 years to build an Azalea bonsai faster?
Can someone help out here as I am learning lots from this thread?
Charles

Hmm, I’m not sure you’d get twice the ramification if you don't let your azalea flower for five years, but you would get lots of growth, and yes ramification if you pruned it wisely.

However, if your tree was a Satsuki, wouldn't you want to know where the Ground color (solid color) branches were first and mark these (or vice versa)?

Second, I'm not sure you'd get a ton of trunk development as a potted tree, but it would be better than flowering years. To get that, go to the ground!

You often see references recommending Hard prune one year, repot another, and let flower the 3rd (I forget the exact order). That's good advice to enthusiasts to take keep the tree in tip top condition, growing it to the tree's best advantage.

Cheers,
DSD sends
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Not that i'll ever have the problem, but i'm interested to know..
In the second video he spoke about this root being to big on the nebari
View attachment 306702
Said it needed some work done to weaken it. I've not yet heard about that being done. Anyone know how to go about in achieving that?
Yep, that video was much improved!

Interesting, I heard him say that too. I believe Peter meant that instead of chopping the root off right away, he'd cut through the root a bit one year, then another until he could lop it off without damaging the flow to the tree.

There are some evidence that certain roots feed certain parts of the tree in azaleas. I heard it in one of these videos by Paul Eslinger, but I haven't heard it since. Maybe Peter Warren will clarify this point.
  1. Satsuki Azalea Lecture
  2. Satsuki Azalea lecture
  3. Satsuki Azalea lectures
Best
DSD sends
 
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