"phoenix graft", any fans???

[Attila Soos]

I live in South Africa where Junipers are not indigenous, and that kind of material is very simply not available. Sure, we have some stunning old olives, but not junipers. This means that the closest I could ever dream to come to a tree with that look and feel is by means of a phoenix graft.

I agree, there are many instances when one has no means of acquiring an "original" tree of great age, and the Phoenix graft is the closest alternative.

The only objection I have, is when someone argues that a Phoenix graft is virtually equivalent to an original tree, "because both trees are manipulated". This is a poor argument.

 

[jk_lewis]

Here is a similar question:

If you had a choice between these two trees:

One is 1000 years old, collected as a yamadori in the mountains, and trained for 10 years.

The other one is only 40 years old, grown from seed, and then glued and carved to a big chunk of drift-wood.

The two are very similar-looking, in size, shape, and proportion, and of the same species.


Which one would you like to have?
Would you argue that there is not much difference between the ancient metuselah, and the youngster, because they look similar, and both have bonsai training? (same could be argued for a 10 carat real diamond, and a 10 carat artificial diamond, since both look the same and have identical chemical composition.. but I doubt that they'd fetch the same price). How about a real Rembrandt and a perfect copy?

Weeeellll . . . they're both probably too big for me, anyway.

Seriously, and in response to your first question . . . I think it is a matter (minor, of course) of ethics.

To me, at least, grafting shimpaku branches on a stupendous collected but otherwise useless juniper trunk is technologically impressive, but ethically questionable if you don't fess up to what you have done. Ditto tanuki.

I fully realize that all of bonsai is IMAGE and trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but there simply are steps I personally will never take without letting people in to how I'm fooling them.

I suppose it is a matter of personal behavior and ethics. And again, the ethics aren't earth shattering, but they ARE there.

 

[Colorado Slim]

like most things, take pride in the work you do. From my perspective, there's more pride to be taken by the artist from an exceptional graft than there is from a 1000 year old tree anyway, it's not like you grew the thing from start to finish

if I produced an outstanding graft that made people stop and say, "holy smokes, how old is that thing, it must be ancient?!?" then of course I would have a school-girl giddy moment of pride as I told them the work I put in.

also, if you're trying to pass off grafts for age, then your motivation is financial not artistic, and although it may come off immoral, it also is missing the point... and frankly, most people, even an amateur like me can tell the difference between a "bonsai" produced for profit and a real bonsai

 

[Attila Soos]

To me, at least, grafting shimpaku branches on a stupendous collected but otherwise useless juniper trunk is technologically impressive, but ethically questionable if you don't fess up to what you have done. Ditto tanuki.

I fully realize that all of bonsai is IMAGE and trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but there simply are steps I personally will never take without letting people in to how I'm fooling them.

I suppose it is a matter of personal behavior and ethics. And again, the ethics aren't earth shattering, but they ARE there.

The ethical part is actually the simplest of the issue here. As long as one discloses the fact that it was grafted (either the tanuki, or the shimpaku branches), the bonsaist did all he needed to do. The rest is just personal preference.

 

[Attila Soos]

From my perspective, there's more pride to be taken by the artist from an exceptional graft than there is from a 1000 year old tree anyway, it's not like you grew the thing from start to finish

if I produced an outstanding graft that made people stop and say, "holy smokes, how old is that thing, it must be ancient?!?" then of course I would have a school-girl giddy moment of pride as I told them the work I put in.

also, if you're trying to pass off grafts for age, then your motivation is financial not artistic, and although it may come off immoral, it also is missing the point... and frankly, most people, even an amateur like me can tell the difference between a "bonsai" produced for profit and a real bonsai

I agree. It may be harder to create a perfect tanuki, than to style an old yamadori. And the artist can take pride in that.

But to me the reall appeal (and value) of bonsai is not about how much work one has done. That is a matter of vanity. If I happened to find a very old tree in the mountain, that I had the right to collect, and it looked great as it is, with very little to be done to it, that would be incredibly valuable and precious. The fact that nature created something like that, would make it a very rare and valuable work of art, in the eyes of us, humans. Althouth nature does not create art, per se, we can instantly elevate it to the status of art, by simply displaying it as such (see Suiseki, or Sholar's stones, or Found Art).

Although I like and appreciate when creating art from nothing, there is something about finding art in nature, that humans can never replicate.

Of course, this is my personal preference, and the way I do bonsai. There are many other ways, equally enjoyable. Creating a Tanuki is a perfectly valid and admirable pursuit, and takes a lot of skill.

 

[stacy allen muse]

I was wondering where some of these guys out west dig their hundreds of year old trees at... I am thinking about making a whole bunch of phoenix grafts and going out and planting them in nature !!! Could you just imagine being out in the high desert somewhere, digging up what you thought was an amazing tree, only to find out some fool had phoenix grafted it !!! ha,ha,ha Freaking awesome!!!
So, I think we can all agree that even if one creates the most amazing phoenix graft... and put side by side with one that was comparable, but real... we all would take the one that was real... if we could afford it. That said I do feel there is a place for them, and even a market for them... as long as one reveals it for what it is.
It is funny though that when one roots a plant around a rock and greatly enhances it's aesthetics, we do not question it the same way... if one collects a tree from nature and it is attached to a rock, does it make it that much more valuable ??? Just curious...
Gotta go... I gotta talk to a man about renting a uhaul, so I can transport a bunch of phoenix graft out west !!! Only Joking...

 

[Bill S]

Go for it Stacy, they have become part of the culture, with the obvious fess up to what it is, there are quite a few good ones out there, saw something lately Colin Lewis did, even he has changed his mind if I reember correctly.

As to your joke, plan ahead of a club dig, and put a couple out where the club plans to go, and sit back and watch.

 

[october]

Bill.. The first pic...Is this one a Colin Lewis graft??? I have had this pic in my files for years. I am not sure if this is the one where it was a live tree and then it died. The owner really wanted to keep the tree so he created a tanuki. I am not sure if this is the same tree or even if it is Colin Lewis..

Pic 2 is a tanuki that was for sale at NE Bonsai Gardens about 6 years ago.. A stunning tree.

Rob

 

[october]

and a couple more for inspiration. These are probably 2 of the best I have ever seen. These are from 2 different artists.. amazing....

 

[Colorado Slim]

I agree. It may be harder to create a perfect tanuki, than to style an old yamadori. And the artist can take pride in that.

But to me the reall appeal (and value) of bonsai is not about how much work one has done. That is a matter of vanity. If I happened to find a very old tree in the mountain, that I had the right to collect, and it looked great as it is, with very little to be done to it, that would be incredibly valuable and precious. The fact that nature created something like that, would make it a very rare and valuable work of art, in the eyes of us, humans. Althouth nature does not create art, per se, we can instantly elevate it to the status of art, by simply displaying it as such (see Suiseki, or Sholar's stones, or Found Art).

I agree, and some day I hope to have an amazing assortment of artwork I can attribute to myself, others and nature itself... I choose not to limit myself to one appreciated style, as I'm sure few do. Nor was I saying that man-fabricated bonsai are better than the natural, or vice versa... what I was saying is that to try to pass off work done yourself as work done by nature is selling yourself short as an artist. We're comparing sculpture to photography here, they are two different mediums, and although a sculpture deserves a certain level of respect like a 1000 year old tree does, there's nothing wrong with appreciating the beauty of a photograph which took less than a second to create...

 

[Attila Soos]

I agree, and some day I hope to have an amazing assortment of artwork I can attribute to myself, others and nature itself... I choose not to limit myself to one appreciated style, as I'm sure few do. Nor was I saying that man-fabricated bonsai are better than the natural, or vice versa... what I was saying is that to try to pass off work done yourself as work done by nature is selling yourself short as an artist. We're comparing sculpture to photography here, they are two different mediums, and although a sculpture deserves a certain level of respect like a 1000 year old tree does, there's nothing wrong with appreciating the beauty of a photograph which took less than a second to create...

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Attila Soos]

Pic 2 is a tanuki that was for sale at NE Bonsai Gardens about 6 years ago.. A stunning tree.

Rob

That is stunning.

When creating Tanuki, it makes a big difference if one selects a dead tree that easily lends itself to the treatment. In the case of the second picture, we can see that the deadwood has deep channels, where the young whip can be easily placed, and as it grows, it will mold to the surface of the deadwood.

 

[Attila Soos]

and a couple more for inspiration. These are probably 2 of the best I have ever seen. These are from 2 different artists.. amazing....

I can see how the second one was done, but I have a hard time seeing the graft on the first one. Most of it is live wood, so I am not sure what is going on there...

 

[sam]

didnt the pine tanuki appear/win a prize in a big european contest-fooling a lot of people?

best wishes, sam

 

[Andrew Legg]

Hi All,

Just for the record, I have no issue with declaring a phoenix graft as such. I also have no interest in doing bonsai for commercial gain (not that there is anything wrong with that). I believe that we should be honest about our trees and where they come from and how they reached their current design. If you wantto lie about your trees then do so, but I see no vlaue in that for anyone.

For me bonsai is about three things. The process, the outcome and the friendship. The process is the going to find material, the digging for trees in nature, the caring for them, the playing in the potting mix with my 2 and 4 year olds, the pinching, the potting, the thinking, the designing and redesigning, the wiring etc etc. The friendship is all about the interactions I have with others during this process, and the outcome, well, that all about whether I like spending my time looking at my trees at the end of it all (not that there is ever an end!!!). Just like in photography, an image is created through the addition of a number of factors. There is the composition, the time of day, the filter one chooses, the development process selected or the digital post processing done on the photo. At the end of the day, when all is said and done, I think I agree that "the real thing" is more special in some way that something that has been manipulated. As Attila says, there is just something about "the real thing" to which we are drawn.

Where I do think we need to exercise caution is where we automatically judge phoenix graft as a negative thing as it is an "attempt to deceive". It is not. It is an attempt to recreate or to emmulate what can be found in nature. Whether someone uses it to deceive or not is up to the individual. It is the deception that we should be critical of, not the technique.

 

[Gene Deci]

Andrew Legg "....bonsai is about three things. The process, the outcome and the friendship."

Nicely said Andrew. I did not fully appreciate the friendships that would evolve when I first started doing bonsai. The outcome and especially the process are what captivated me. But it turned out that making friends happens easily, not only because of the common interests, but also because we tend to be so trustworthy. We expect folks to be honest and open because they usually are. I don't assume phoenix grafts are an attempt to deceive and I have seen many that I like. But if I encountered one that was presented as a natural tree I think that would be very sad.

 

[october]

Hi Sam..regarding the pine. The only info I have is that it was created by Mark Noelanders and was showed at the Noelanders trophy last January.

Rob