Pine branch selection

[Swill]

Is this a scotch pine? I got it at a bonsai auction in 2011 and haven't really touched it since. It backbudded pretty well this year but the foliage is still pretty far from the trunk on several branches. The branches basically all come from two whorls and I'm worried if I reduce to a single branch at each whorl the tree will look very sparse, particularly on the left side.

The front (click images for larger versions):


The first whorl:



The second whorl:



From above:



The back:



A quick virtual image. Some of the foliage left in the image might belong to branches that no longer exist. I don't really know how to graft so I feel like that's kind of a long shot so if there is a good alternative I would like to hear it:

 

[jk_lewis]

There's always a literati-like form. This has a nice slim trunk and lots of movement. Here's just one of several options. Maybe fiddle with planting angle, too.

 

[jkd2572]

I would wire everything into pads and then decide what to remove. It takes more work, but you can see the final shape better.

 

[Swill]

Thanks for the advice. I think the literati form is probably the way to go. I could use more wiring practice so wiring out the branches is a good idea for that alone.

 

[Ris]

I would wire everything into pads and then decide what to remove. It takes more work, but you can see the final shape better.

I agree with jdk2572 wire all those branches creating small pads, you will be amazed of what you got after. I always try wiring all the branches then remove what seams out of place when viewed from font positioning...
Good Luck thanks for sharing pictures of your tree.
Rishi.

 

[Brian Underwood]

I don't think Literati is the way to go with this one, mainly because the lower portion of the trunk is too straight. Do what the others have said and wire EVERY branch to the very best of your ability, then go from there. The one wire you applied is ok except for the gap between branch and trunk. I would rewire this and wrap it behind the trunk, keeping the wire tight to the bark. The way you have it now doesn't look very good, and is putting extra pressure on your branch. Good luck, and update when you have the work finished!

 

[Vance Wood]

It has always struck me as odd that the two most difficult forms or styles to achieve effectively; the Literatti and the Cascade, seem to be viewed by the beginner as the go to default when examining a difficult tree. Most of these attempts fail miserably and the beginner has added the first of many what I call the ubiquitous bonsaius interrupts, to their collection. I have had quite a few of them that plagued my past till I decided to do something else with them, or unleash them at a club auction.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Agreed Vance. Consider standing the tree upright, then wiring the branches down in several layers of pads, like spruce is often styled.

Barring that, it will be important to decide if the movement should continue with the direction of the trunk, or if it should turn back toward the base.

Dont be in a hurry to remove much. The whorls won't cause much of a problem, since the tree is thin and probably not bulking up very fast.

 

[Dav4]

I was going to suggest standing the tree upright as well...though I suspect a nice literati is still in the running with the new positioning. By the way, I think you have yourself a nice collected lodgepole pine there...I've killed two in the last three years....

 

[Swill]

In a fit of panic I cut off the wire and left the tree alone while I wait for a clear sign from above. Nothing has come yet and I was thinking about re-potting soon. I'm a little worried the branches will need to be moved further if it is in an upright position and I'm really good at damaging branches when wiring. I'm also worried about the red arrow section (see picture in this post). Should it be wired/altered in some way to be more attractive?

The blue arrow section has some dying needles. Maybe they weren't getting enough sun?

 

[Adair M]

In that upright positition, it has more of a literati feel to it. I'm not saying it should be styled as a literati, because literati should convey a feeling of great age. Just a thin trunk does not a literati make. It's the bark. Bark is one of those things that can only occur with the passage of time.

This tree does not have aged bark. Yet. At least not up in the curve section where the red arrow is. Maybe it does on the lower section. I can't really tell on my computer...

Normally, I would suggest losing the branch coming from the inside of the curve, just below the curve marked in red. HOWEVER, if you do want to make a literati out of this, you may choose to keep that branch, jin the trunk above it, and work with the remaining branches.

 

[fourteener]

Until you discover a big picture idea I think you have to two things soon.

1. You have to deal with those whorls. Someone said it won't matter much, I say it already matters. You can see that the joint is bigger than the trunk in a couple of places and decisions need to be made. A non-decision will force a future decision.

2. Those low, weak branches would come to life it you wired them out to catch some sun and cut off some of the top or at least did some candle plucking or both. Removing part of the top and getting a new leader would accomplish a number of things for you.

In the end, do you want it to look good today or five years from now. Sometimes design doesn't come to us right away, but there are two things we know. Growth at the top with steal life from the bottom and we need things to be shorter not taller in bonsai. Too many branches at one point will cause a problem, some decision has to be made. When I'm unsure I start with things I know.

 

[fourteener]

By the way, very cool tree with a lot of good potential. fertilize, candle pluck, new buds to choose from. I look forward to your choices!!

 

[subnet_rx]

Interesting, I have the exact same problem with a JBP. Two sets of whorls, reducing them to one would significantly reduce the number of branches on the tree. The big difference with mine is that it's in the ground and still fattening up, but I'm still interested in someone's advice on what to do with this tree because I think it would apply to mine as well.

 

[Swill]

Until you discover a big picture idea I think you have to two things soon.

1. You have to deal with those whorls. Someone said it won't matter much, I say it already matters. You can see that the joint is bigger than the trunk in a couple of places and decisions need to be made. A non-decision will force a future decision.

2. Those low, weak branches would come to life it you wired them out to catch some sun and cut off some of the top or at least did some candle plucking or both. Removing part of the top and getting a new leader would accomplish a number of things for you.

In the end, do you want it to look good today or five years from now. Sometimes design doesn't come to us right away, but there are two things we know. Growth at the top with steal life from the bottom and we need things to be shorter not taller in bonsai. Too many branches at one point will cause a problem, some decision has to be made. When I'm unsure I start with things I know.

1. I would like to deal with those whorls soon but I can't decide what to cut. If I repot it this year should I wait until next year to remove branches? Should I wait to wire?

2. One of the low branches is already dead. I would like to remove part of the top but where exactly? Should I gradually reduce the top?

I'm perfectly happy with it looking good five years from now I'm just not sure of the steps to get there. A lot of the pro videos I have watched have been demonstrations in which a lot of work has been done at once, and I've also read that they usually don't rush progress so much if it isn't a demonstration but then again the demonstration trees seem to often do fine or even be sold for a quite a bit of cash right after the demo.

 

[0soyoung]

Interesting, I have the exact same problem with a JBP. Two sets of whorls, reducing them to one would significantly reduce the number of branches on the tree. The big difference with mine is that it's in the ground and still fattening up, ...

I would like to deal with those whorls soon but I can't decide what to cut.

Fear of flying, I know it well.

The best time to lop off some of the branches is after the new foliage has hardened - like August. This will give you maximal back budding. Also pinching the candles now to balance them across the tree, like you would a white pine, will help force some back budding too. August will give the biggest impetus and is probably enough, but I figure why not give the tree as clear a message as possible (so to speak).

Meanwhile, tie little pieces of bright colored tape/string ('florescent' oranges are readily available) to branches you think you want to keep. Then you can stand back and look at its bones, sleep on it, look again, get comfortable with what you've chosen or change it until your are. By the time August rolls around you surely will have your solutions and it will be a joyous pruning session. Then, IMHO, you play another round of study-my-tree, this time looking to chase back the foliage that you might do in this November.

Now you are off the ground, FWIW

 

[fourteener]

If your going to repot it, you shouldn't do much else to it this year. 1 insult per year. Three major insults include, repotting, large amounts of foliage coming off, or radical restyling. I would never do two of those in the same year. The xception to that is certain species and exceptionally healthy plants.

When I look at your tree, I see one of the biggest branches in the first whorl in on the inside of a curve. The first decision is this, take the top of the tree off so this is your new leader, or take it away. Taking it away is not much of a problem because we are always wirng branches down. Since we're wiring branches down that branch has it's replacement right above it. To me those two things make it an easy decision. 1. Inside a curve, 2 branch above could be wired down to replace. 3. Biggest branch in the whorl....gone. All that as long as you decide to not take the whole top off and make it your top branch. If you do that you still haven't solved your whorl problem.

Second choice finding a new leader and cutting off some of your current top. Keep in mind you need some branches to keep some depth dimension, that has to be part of the choice.

I think the very bottom scraggly branch down to the left is an important part of your design in the future, but it is growing weak because of all the energy at the top. Take some of that energy off the top and that branch will come to life. I would position your tree so that it is in the sun and I wouldn't pinch any candles on it for now

If I could make two cut this year it would be taking off some of the top and find a new leader, and taking off that branch on the inside of the curve. If you repot I wouldn't mess with the candles unless they come out really strong. If you don't repot I would knock the strongest candles in half fertilize well and see how much back budding you can create. I have had a lot of success with backbudding on scotch pine.

It's no problem to take your time, But I think you need to make at least a couple of decisions about the branches in the whorl this year. I know where your at, I have trees on my benches that require some decisions I haven't made yet. Always easier to decide for someone else!!

 

[Swill]

Thanks for that virtual image Fourteener. I couldn't physically set it at that angle when leaning it on the concrete blocks for a photo.

I know I titled the thread branch selection but part of the problem is I don't feel like there is that much selection especially considering most of my experience is with overgrown junipers and shrubs. I totally agree about removing the branch on the inside of that first curve.

Do you think some top pruning and removing that branch should be prioritized over re-potting? How long does it take for a lower branch to totally fade away on average?

As of today I'm a little worried about the trees health. More needles have browned.

 

[A Random User]

I would pick the stronger, but yet still workable branches...
and cut of the rest, end of story. What is left, will clearly
define where you will go with the tree.

Nothing worse than designing a tree and falling in love
with it... only to later have to cut half of it off and start
from scratch.

 

[sdavis]

what species

I'm betting it is a lodgepole, not a Scots pine.