Question about Chinese Elm

[BalconyBonsai]

Hi again, my first bonsai I got as a present on my 40th birthday this spring. It's a quite big chinese Elm and I think it is doing fine but I have noticed that every day a bunch of leaves have turned yellow and eventually fall of. New leaves are still being sprouted all over the tree so I think the net sum is still positive but I'm wondering if thus is normal since it's still summer here in Sweden.

The other thing I'm wondering is that almost all of the branches have leaves on them but many, especually in the crown, only have leaves close to the tip of the branches. Is thia normal? The crown is very congested with small branches/twigs so maybe the sunlight is not enough in there? I think I should probably do a thinning out of branches in there?

The tree is in full sun between like 10 in the morning until around 7 at night and outdoors. I try to gauge when to water and generally I do it at least once a day. My worry is though that it might have been overwatered a bit and also it went some month without proper fertilizing since I was using liquid fertilizer and not applying enough. Now I use biogold so I think that should not be a problem any more.

Sorry for the amount and quality of the pictures but hopefully the can illustrate the situation somewhat.

 

[Shibui]

Yellow leaves can be a sign of lack of water, lack of nutrient, lack of light or root problems. A few yellow leaves is not too concerning. I would check the soil to see if the tree is getting root bound as that can cause problems with watering and nutrition. The yellow leaves could be from previous over watering but it should recover now that you have better control. Just make sure you are not keeping it too dry now. In summer I water my bonsai twice each day but exact amount will depend on soil type, how many roots, local conditions, etc, etc so it is impossible to advise properly from here.
The side view shows lots of healthy growth on the outside but weaker branches on the side close to the wall. Do you rotate the tree every week or 2? Need to balance light on all sides for healthy growth on all sides.
The top and some of the branches look very congested and I agree that it is time to thin out some areas. Chinese elms are very resilient so you can cut back fearlessly and it will make new shoots after pruning.

 

[sorce]

There's one to repot today!

I reckon if you have a root issue, giving it a good hard cut back will lead it throw a bunch of shoots, but they'll be gangly and start doing the same thing anyway.

These tend to be hedged to a silhouette, and never cleaned of excess interior branching, this is always going to lead to this situation, root problem or not.

Seems part of the roots aren't getting water. Have a look down in there yet? What's it look like up the drain holes? Sometimes you can see dry patches.

Once you figure out what's ailing it, and get to cutting back, waaaay back, damn near restarting every branch, you might find it better to make a plan to air layer this is into a few separate trees.

Sorce

 

[BalconyBonsai]

Yellow leaves can be a sign of lack of water, lack of nutrient, lack of light or root problems. A few yellow leaves is not too concerning. I would check the soil to see if the tree is getting root bound as that can cause problems with watering and nutrition. The yellow leaves could be from previous over watering but it should recover now that you have better control. Just make sure you are not keeping it too dry now. In summer I water my bonsai twice each day but exact amount will depend on soil type, how many roots, local conditions, etc, etc so it is impossible to advise properly from here.
The side view shows lots of healthy growth on the outside but weaker branches on the side close to the wall. Do you rotate the tree every week or 2? Need to balance light on all sides for healthy growth on all sides.
The top and some of the branches look very congested and I agree that it is time to thin out some areas. Chinese elms are very resilient so you can cut back fearlessly and it will make new shoots after pruning.

I try to rotate the tree every week but I have done 180° rotations, maybe I should switch to 90°. I have been thinking about repotting it in the spring since there are some roots coming out through the drainage holes but I haven't looked at the actual root situation yet. I am afraid lifting the tree up to check the roots will disturb it so I thought I would do it at repotting time in the spring.

I will get on thinning out the mesh of smaller branches and hopefully that will help get a more full crown.

Thanks

 

[BalconyBonsai]

There's one to repot today!

I reckon if you have a root issue, giving it a good hard cut back will lead it throw a bunch of shoots, but they'll be gangly and start doing the same thing anyway.

These tend to be hedged to a silhouette, and never cleaned of excess interior branching, this is always going to lead to this situation, root problem or not.

Seems part of the roots aren't getting water. Have a look down in there yet? What's it look like up the drain holes? Sometimes you can see dry patches.

Once you figure out what's ailing it, and get to cutting back, waaaay back, damn near restarting every branch, you might find it better to make a plan to air layer this is into a few separate trees.

Sorce

Yeah, I will repot this in the spring.

How can you tell not all roots are getting watered? Are roots specifically delivering water to specific branches? I have always assumed the water from all roots pooled together to "fuel" the tree?

Regarding layering this up in to several trees, I'm not at that level of my bonsai journey yet. At the moment I'm mostly concerned about understanding what I need to do to make them thrive, but maybe in the future...

Also, since this was a present and my first tree, there is some sentimental value in trying to get it to age with me and maybe pass it over to my kids if they have some interest in bonsai when they get older. It might be a bit corny but in my mind it is sort of profound

 

[sorce]

kids

several trees

Those kinda match up!

I believe everything has the ability to reroute assets from other sections at different rates, but in observing tops and bottoms, they all seem pretty directly connected to a degree.

In a case like this, where it doesn't necessarily need those branches, since it is so congested, it makes more sense for it NOT to reconnect with those branches.

Then the other roots ALSO have the opportunity to take over where the old, now moistly rotting roots were, essentially cannibalizing itself.

I think one of the most important things to remember about bonsai, is though trees have an optimal growth pattern, they don't care at all what they look like. They are always just trying to live.

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

Roots showing at the drain hole is not a good indication it needs repotting. That is the first place roots grow to. A better indication is how firm the soil feels. If there is still plenty of space in the pot the soil will feel a little spongy. If it feels really hard when you press down that indicates the soil is full of roots. Lifting a tree out of the pot will not disturb it unless all the soil falls off the roots. If the soil feels firm it is almost certain that the roots will hold all the soil together as you lift the tree out.
If I am not sure of the past history I prefer to repot at the first opportunity. This allows me to have the tree in a known soil, to know when and how much it was last root pruned and to see what state the roots are in.
180 weekly rotations should be giving all sides good access to light. Could just be a trick of the photo. You can see better so do you believe the tree is healthier on one side or relatively even? Possibly just a factor of not trimming effectively?
There is certainly a strong correlation between individual roots and different parts of the tree. We often see strong roots directly under stronger branches.

 

[tmjudd1]

I'm seeing very large leaves, per se. This tells 'me' that the tree is either lacking enough DIRECT sunlight, being 'over-fertilized'... or a combination of the two. Also, things do look a bit congested in a few areas. Less is oft times 'more' when trying to balance things like this out. Do some strategic pruning to open things up, let the birds fly through and allow more sunlight to caress the leaves of this Chinese Elm. Thinning out the congested growth to let more light get into the inner portions of the tree would probably be very beneficial. Bear in mind, ramification reduces leaf size, however. Proper sunlight and a balanced schedule of feeding is just important for things to work properly. There's also a balance required for harmony between the foliage and the root structure. The leaves provide sustenance for the roots, and likewise, in return, the roots provide sustenance to the leaves. If the foliage thickens to a point that the roots cannot efficiently support the requirements being demanded of the leaves, you will have problems. Likewise, if the tree has become 'root-bound' and the leaves cannot support the demands of the roots... yep. You, got it... you will have problems there, too! I'm not sure of your true levels of sunlight, what you consider 'direct', or 'indirect' sunlight, temperatures, etc. There's lots of variables to consider. For 'me'... I live in a place that get's so darned hot, during the summer, that the Devil, himself goes someplace cooler until fall. Six hours of 'direct' sunlight, in 'my' region, is the equivalent to 10+ hours of direct sunlight for most others. I give my trees only about six hours worth of direct light and make sure that the rest of the day provides nothing but 'indirect' sunlight. That seems to be the 'G' spot for my Chinese Elms. I doubt that you have such issues with heat as I do. I'm thinking you need to give them more direct sunlight, open them up so the birds can fly through and take it easy on the feeding. Visualize what you want it to look like, prune it hard during the growing season (not during fall, nor winter months). It's gonna look ugly, at first, for a long time... but that's what you need to do if you want to create something beautiful! Draw pictures of what you'd like to see in a few years. Think ahead and prune hard to start a shape. As the shape develops, let everything grow wild and ugly, again until the branches harden and become woody where you need to cut them back to to maintain your designed shape. If you wait until the wild growth becomes woody and hard, ramification will begin. If you continuously prune green limbs, just to maintain a shape, you'll just have wild growth with big leaves and no ramification at all. I could go on and on, but I won't. I'd first check to see if it's root-bound. It will not hurt the tree to simply lift it from its pot to take a quick peek at the roots. That would be a good start for putting together a plan...

 

[BalconyBonsai]

Roots showing at the drain hole is not a good indication it needs repotting. That is the first place roots grow to. A better indication is how firm the soil feels. If there is still plenty of space in the pot the soil will feel a little spongy. If it feels really hard when you press down that indicates the soil is full of roots. Lifting a tree out of the pot will not disturb it unless all the soil falls off the roots. If the soil feels firm it is almost certain that the roots will hold all the soil together as you lift the tree out.
If I am not sure of the past history I prefer to repot at the first opportunity. This allows me to have the tree in a known soil, to know when and how much it was last root pruned and to see what state the roots are in.
180 weekly rotations should be giving all sides good access to light. Could just be a trick of the photo. You can see better so do you believe the tree is healthier on one side or relatively even? Possibly just a factor of not trimming effectively?
There is certainly a strong correlation between individual roots and different parts of the tree. We often see strong roots directly under stronger branches.

I will do an investigation of the roots as soon as possible.

I don't think there is much difference between the sides, more a difference between top and bottom. I had an idea that the top of the tree might be blocking sunlight to the lower branches but I don't think that is the case. I have not done frequent pruning on it since I under stood from a youtube video of Peter Chan trimming a chinese elm that not doing so frequently could result in stronger growth. I might have misunderstood him though...

 

[BalconyBonsai]

I'm seeing very large leaves, per se. This tells 'me' that the tree is either lacking enough DIRECT sunlight, being 'over-fertilized'... or a combination of the two. Also, things do look a bit congested in a few areas. Less is oft times 'more' when trying to balance things like this out. Do some strategic pruning to open things up, let the birds fly through and allow more sunlight to caress the leaves of this Chinese Elm. Thinning out the congested growth to let more light get into the inner portions of the tree would probably be very beneficial. Bear in mind, ramification reduces leaf size, however. Proper sunlight and a balanced schedule of feeding is just important for things to work properly. There's also a balance required for harmony between the foliage and the root structure. The leaves provide sustenance for the roots, and likewise, in return, the roots provide sustenance to the leaves. If the foliage thickens to a point that the roots cannot efficiently support the requirements being demanded of the leaves, you will have problems. Likewise, if the tree has become 'root-bound' and the leaves cannot support the demands of the roots... yep. You, got it... you will have problems there, too! I'm not sure of your true levels of sunlight, what you consider 'direct', or 'indirect' sunlight, temperatures, etc. There's lots of variables to consider. For 'me'... I live in a place that get's so darned hot, during the summer, that the Devil, himself goes someplace cooler until fall. Six hours of 'direct' sunlight, in 'my' region, is the equivalent to 10+ hours of direct sunlight for most others. I give my trees only about six hours worth of direct light and make sure that the rest of the day provides nothing but 'indirect' sunlight. That seems to be the 'G' spot for my Chinese Elms. I doubt that you have such issues with heat as I do. I'm thinking you need to give them more direct sunlight, open them up so the birds can fly through and take it easy on the feeding. Visualize what you want it to look like, prune it hard during the growing season (not during fall, nor winter months). It's gonna look ugly, at first, for a long time... but that's what you need to do if you want to create something beautiful! Draw pictures of what you'd like to see in a few years. Think ahead and prune hard to start a shape. As the shape develops, let everything grow wild and ugly, again until the branches harden and become woody where you need to cut them back to to maintain your designed shape. If you wait until the wild growth becomes woody and hard, ramification will begin. If you continuously prune green limbs, just to maintain a shape, you'll just have wild growth with big leaves and no ramification at all. I could go on and on, but I won't. I'd first check to see if it's root-bound. It will not hurt the tree to simply lift it from its pot to take a quick peek at the roots. That would be a good start for putting together a plan...

Yes, I don't think we have similar problems in terms of heat. On a warm summer day we have maybe 26-28°C. I hope it's not a question of it needing more sunlight since I live in an appartment and we have a south facing balcony where it lives. The placement on the balcony is also sort of optimised, it might be possible to get it maybe 1 more hour of morning sun but since the balcony is not bonsai exclusive and those and my other trees and plant already dominate it, I have to make some compromises

But I really like your idea of making a plan and drawing an picture of what I want it to look like. I have been somewhat scared of cutting the branches since really like the leaves and don't want to take them away. But I will get to work in the spring and hopefully I'm more confident by then.

Thanks for your thoughts and ideas!

 

[Caryboy]

From what I have heard about Chinese Elms, is they will tolerate alot. I have also heard from many people they are also trees suitable for indoor or outdoor bonsai, and that is the plan for my Chinese Elm. I already have the nice pot for it but do not plan on repotting it until spring, even though it will be spending the winter inside with my other indoor trees.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Stop rotating the tree. While it needs good light on all sides, the leaves become acclimated to the light present when they emerge. Increasing the light on those from the dimmer side of the tree helps them to the same extent that it hurts the leaves that emerged in full sun but now find themselves on the dim side so, no net gain and you're forcing the tree to re-adjust for nada.

You need to maintain the desired shape of the canopies by removing dead & dying twigs and allowing sun to penetrate the interior. Pick an imaginary canopy limit and trim leaves/twig that cross that barrier. Anticipate growth and trim early rather than later. look closely at the interior(s) and remove all dead twigs so the birdies can fly through.