Raynn’s Juniper Projects - Procumbens Nana & Pfitzeriana Aurea

Right, amazon order arriving early afternoon, am I ok to fertilize immediately (I watered it when I first got it, so only 2 days ago and nursury soil probably retains mosture well) and then can wait till this evening for the soap and neem treatment?

Keep reading posts on this forum about the neem stuff, people saying they use it with no problems, people saying it shouldn’t be used on waxy leaves like procumbens as it can mess wth the leaves respiration, some say it turns procumbens neon green and shiny or takes the blue colour out of blue varients of stuff (I have no such varieties but, still), having to hose the plants off before moving them out of shade as it can still cause them to burn a day or two later, some peoples plants just getting worse and dropping leaves after. So think I’m just worrying/overthinking a little bit. At least both products seem to agree on reapplication time of a week, the neem oil says to make sure the plant is wet before applying, so do I need to mist it first? I guess another option is take the neem out of the equation entirely and just use the soap, which does come with plant wash mix ratio instructions as well as neem solution instructions.

Then for the fert, it has instructions but its either 1/2 a cap per L or 1/4 if the plant is small/young/sensitive, not sure what my procumbens falls under, my pfitzer is definitly small and young so that one seems straightforward at least. And that also says weekly (or fortnightly but, weekly may be better if we’re going for vigorous growth?)

I’m way overthinking all this, I know. I get too caught up in the specifics and then wonder why I get so overwhelmed 😅
 
ForeverRaynning said:
It has 2 thick roots coming out that I’d probably want to remove at some point but I left those the heck alone as I know now is not the time for root work plus that would almost certainly count as a big insult, even with all the smaller roots, but idk where those come from, they may all come from the two thicker trunk roots I can see for all I know. Suppose they may work for nebari but just seems to be those two.
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No you don't want to cut those big roots. We call those 'nebari'.
 
Paradox said:
No you don't want to cut those big roots. We call those 'nebari'.
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Just a shame there’s only those two at that level that I can see, but if I can get them developed they may help combat any reverse taper from the two trunks, will have to see whats lower down in a year or so when I repot.
 
ForeverRaynning said:
Just a shame there’s only those two at that level that I can see, but if I can get them developed they may help combat any reverse taper from the two trunks, will have to see whats lower down in a year or so when I repot.
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I know people talk about nursery trees having 2 layers of roots. I personally have not seen it. Those roots should grow as the tree grows as long as the fine roots on the ends stay healthy. The fact they are there is lucky and good! Often nursery trees don't already have them.
 
Did some more light pruning earlier today, just to remove some bits from the top that had brown sections, even if the newer growth looked ok or maybe just a bit pale, just to be safe, and have just now fertilised, 1/2 cap miracle gro in a L of water, if I should have done 1/4th then I’m sure the plant will let me know 🤣 But was spending far too long worrying about how much to use, if it counted as small and/or young than was worth it so just went for it at the normal amount.

Will spray it later today with the neem mix (again, no point stressing about it and overthinking it, what will be will be), its cloudy all day tomorrow by the looks of things so should be safe, and cloudy most of the week as well. Cloudy now too but no need to rush, will get my dad to help me with the sprayer later on, might cover the soil with some plastic, and maybe the trunk too with that wound? Its looking a lot better than yesterday somehow, so thats nice, think I just need to keep it dry? Don’t think the fert will have gotten in it, may have, sure it’ll be fine though, I made sure to apply it from under the canopy so I didn’t coat the leaves, I know foliar fertilization is a thing but I assume that needs a weaker solution so avoiding getting it on the leaves just seemed a smart idea.

Does anyone know if I need to mist the foliage with plain water before the neem solution? On the neem oils page it says make sure leaves are already wet before applying but can’t see it mentioned anywhere else online? - “Make sure leaves are fully coated before application, especially where the problem is at its worst.” and on another page “You should thoroughly wet the plants first, before applying the spray.”
 
Ah, the sprayer we have has/had fungicide in it so my dad said not to use it, so will have to get my own so can’t spray it today anyway, don’t think we have any empty normal spray bottles either. Oh well.
 
Right, sprayed the heck out of it, and also all my other trees as well just to be safe. So if anything randomly dies, well I’ll likely know why. 5ml neem oil, 10ml hort soap, 1L warm water. Definitely didn’t need to make that much but was just following the bottle instructions (hense spraying the heck out of the procumbens and then also doing my other plants as well). Due to rain early tomorrow morning so that’ll probably wash it off and if not, it’ll be cloudy all day anyway. Pressume I’ll have to reapply it again next week? How long do you treat? When do you know to stop? How soon can you see improvements? Will likely only re-treat the procumbens, I’m hoping its far enough away from the rest to not have spread anything.
 
You did right to use it all up, neem has a very short half life in water

I think usually they say 2 weeks for re spray but I often do it in a week or so, the idea is to catch any eggs that may hatch- before they can breed themselves

Spraying neighbouring plants also a good move,

Hopefully you will notice the bugs are gone tomorrow or within a few days.
 
RoadManDenDron said:
You did right to use it all up, neem has a very short half life in water

I think usually they say 2 weeks for re spray but I often do it in a week or so, the idea is to catch any eggs that may hatch- before they can breed themselves

Spraying neighbouring plants also a good move,

Hopefully you will notice the bugs are gone tomorrow or within a few days.
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Yeah I read it says use within 8 hours of preperation so didn’t want it to go to waste.

Looking at the instructions on mine they say weekly, possibly related to solition strength? I didn’t see many specs on the paper when tapping the branches (aside from the few larger bugs) but with procumbens being such a dense plant they may have fallen into other leavesrather than off the plant, but hoping there weren’t many to begin with. Will have to read up how quick the eggs hatch, I know its temperature dependent, maybe the same for them to be laid in the first place.

Don’t think I’ve noticed any signs of damage on my other plants thankfully.

Hard to notice if they’ve gone when they are so miniscule, unless the colour can improve that fast. Though the neem may have altered the colour slightly anyway. But will keep an eye on it, I guess the simplest way to tell is if it doesn’t get worse.
 
ForeverRaynning said:
It has 2 thick roots coming out that I’d probably want to remove at some point
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With Juniper they can put out roots higher up the trunk at soil level. These will get thicker and larger if left over time. At some point when your tree is settled in and healthy and time comes to do root work, then you should weigh up how those roots fit into the design of the future root spread and also the health of the tree.

If you have a good spread of roots lower down, or as you suspect, the roots are just extra and look out of place then you should consider removing them. When thinking about removing them, you need to consider how much the roots contribute to the health of the tree and may need to wait longer if the roots lower down need to develop more and gradually reduce the upper root with each repot. But, typically the upper roots are weaker.

Here is a good example video that I parked in my memory because I had a juniper in the same situation and he goes over exactly this. He discusses how removing the root improves the appearance of the tree and how removing the root would not affect the health of his tree.
 
TimIAm said:
Here is a good example video that I parked in my memory because I had a juniper in the same situation and he goes over exactly this. He discusses how removing the root improves the appearance of the tree and how removing the root would not affect the health of his tree.
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Thank you for linking this video, it was great to watch! I think theres at least one thicker root on the opposite side of the tree but its a bit lower down, not sure how deep the trunk goes. Certainly will need the root work doing over the course of a few years, will be sure to save this video to refer back to.

Back to the mites, did some reading and found this - “In cool conditions (~15ºC), the life cycle from egg to adult takes about 35 days to complete.” so it may mean 4-6 weeks of spraying, though temps are lower than that still but they seem to be able to still breed as low as 12C but we’re still averaging lower than as well that this week at least.

And if it's not mites and turns out to be a deficiency of something then hopefully the fertilizer will cover that with the trace elements - unless it needs a bit more than what the fert will give it.
 
Also insulted the Pfitzer for this year, I moved it out of its nursery P9 into a… idk what this is, 3L maybe? Full of compost. Basically slip pot it, didn’t touch the root ball at all.

IMG_9388.jpeg

Now listen, I know, I know, bad drainage and aeration, you’re all allowed to sigh heavily and put your head in your hands, but it kept getting blown over in its old pot and I had this one already with compost in and decided to use what I have, originally was going to cut one of the rose pots down so it was shallower and put it in one of those so ut may not be as bad but wasn’t sure how to cut them so gave up and just stuck it in this full one. It has a chopstick in so I can monitor it and not overwater as I’m pretty sure thats the main issue with being planted in not good soil is it holding alot of water, as long as I don’t water it by hand too often I’m sure it’ll tough it out. If not, no big deal it wasn’t that expensive.

IMG_9390.jpeg

Also update on the procumbens
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Doesn’t seem to have gotten any worse, some brown tips here an there but nothing major, hoping with weekly fert and maybe another few more weeks of weekly neem/hort soap spray it’ll perk up nicely.

So all my plants now have half a wooden chopstick in to keep an eye on the moisture levels. So that should help make sure I’m watering them correctly. Now have a year to just let things grow, hone my watering skills (pot weight test most likely, chopsticks will help that too) and also to get supplies ready for next year.
 
Keep forgetting to respray the procumbens, but just been out and did the paper test and its clear, so I’m now wondering if I ever had mites to begin with, or maybe just the live mites are gone but eggs remain? But seems pointless spraying again if theres nothing in them, and it won’t affect any eggs, so may just leave it, redo the paper test every so often incase there are eggs that start hatching. Did remember to fertilise at least.

I think it’s greening up a bit but hard to tell, will have to get a picture this evening to compare as it may just be the sun making it look brighter.
 
Well, these two have been left to their own devices all year (as have the rest of my trees if I’m honest). IMG_1686.jpegIMG_1690.jpegIMG_1688.jpegIMG_1689.jpeg

The Aurea’s golden tips are looking nice and it feels like the Nana has exploded.

I haven’t been that interested in my junipers since getting my deciduous seedlings (seeing them leaf out has been a joy). But since these two are my biggest stock, I ought to be doing something with them.

I suspect the Nana will be very rootbound by now, but I’m worried if I repot and leave it another year it’ll be even harder to tame, so I think I want to prune that one, a LOT. When is the best time to do this? I’ll admit finally being faced with a ‘proper’ bonsai task intimidates me, I’ve been content just growing my little seedlings and now I have to start making styling decisions on a piece of very prickly material!

The Aurea is growing in a very awkward direction, so I think the best course of action for that one is to wire it more upright this year and establish a proper leader?

So feeling out of my depth again.

Whats the best time to undertake these tasks? I’ll do some research myself but its nice to hear from other people too. I know a bonsai club would probably be my best help but I’m just really not in a position for that sort of thing at the moment.
 
Welcome back!

Take your time and maybe wear gloves, needle junipers as you say are spikey!

Just wanted to mention we are doing a small display at applecast in Lancashire again on 7th and 8th June,

If you wanted to bring a tree either myself or another member would be happy to help you do the work

We also do free workshops open to the public every month (just missed one today) feel free to PM me for info!
 
Wires_Guy_wires said:
They're not root bound. If they were, the growth wouldn't be there.

I wouldn't wire now, but instead wait for fall or winter. Directional pruning can be done the whole season.
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Thanks! Rootbound may have been the wrong word then, but they’ll likely be a pretty dense mess, I know they were circling the pot to some degree when I first got the Nana. The Pfitz was in a much smaller pot to begin with so that will be fine.

Wait till autumn/winter for wiring, got it, gives it another growing season. Looking at it, I think that branch on the left may be good as a first branch (assuming its not too thick), then the other as the leader, that small shoot below the thick branches seems like its best being removed if thats my plan, I assume getting rid of it won’t count as an insult as it’s thats small.

Good to hear I can hack away at the Procumbens anytime. That’ll be a nice project.

RoadManDenDron said:
Welcome back!

Take your time and maybe wear gloves, needle junipers as you say are spikey!

Just wanted to mention we are doing a small display at applecast in Lancashire again on 7th and 8th June,

If you wanted to bring a tree either myself or another member would be happy to help you do the work

We also do free workshops open to the public every month (just missed one today) feel free to PM me for info!
Click to expand...

Hello again!

Bah! I’m away at LARP that weekend, just my luck :(

I may well PM you about those workshops, depending on where they are, attending one may be a good idea.
 
ForeverRaynning said:
Thanks! Rootbound may have been the wrong word then, but they’ll likely be a pretty dense mess, I know they were circling the pot to some degree when I first got the Nana.
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Good that you rephrased it! I want more people to realize that plenty of roots is a good thing. A good solid mat of roots provides a good base for your plant and a good support for your tie down wires later on. Sure, repotting is more work! But still, that hour you spend more compared to a less-well-rooted-plant, relates to saving you a year or two of repairing the root system. Similar to how fast you can finish a coloring book compared to how fast you can finish a single drawing.
Root bound in my book means that plant is 'bound' by it's roots and that their lack of space results in poor health. That's when a repot is required, otherwise, it's because "we want to". Both are perfectly good reasons to do a repot, don't get me wrong on that! But I want people to understand the difference. A rootbound plant will bounce back easily from some harm done during the repot. A heavily rooted plant might not; circling roots can point to the fact that roots explore the pot and found a pot wall, and now they're just probing around by growing there.. In herbaceous plants, that's time to repot. In tree-like plants, that's just happening.

Regarding the wiring, you can do fine wiring now if you want to, some lighter bends are just fine. But in an active season, the bark slips off of the plant easily with very little pressure. So doing hard bends on tougher wood will be a risky operation.

As always in junipers, when trimming you work from the outside inwards, compacting the plant. If you remove all the interior foliage, the nana will probably back bud, but most other junipers don't do it that easily. You want to prevent making a cheerleader / pompom tree with bare sticks and tufts of foliage on the ends of them. Cut back, grow out, cut back, grow out is a easier operation than cut back, hope for something, wait for it to happen, IF it happens grow it out, then cut back. The latter leaves a couple parameters open to luck, which we sometimes simply don't have. Since you're investing time and patience in these plants, I'm of the conviction that we need to remove the luck part and stick with the certainty.
The pfitzer will produce some juvenile foliage (needle) after trimming, that is what they do. Usually they revert back into adult scale foliage the same year or the year after, if that doesn't happen, let it rest. It will fall in line at some point, but persistent juvenile foliage tells you that it needs some more time for recovery.
 
Right, picked up a couple books, 501 Principles and Bonsai by DK, both of these were recommended last year, DK for being UK appropriate and seems very beginner friendly looking at images (was also 22% off, woo) and 501 being a good investment (Amazon warehouse had a used hardback copy at a reasonable price that just has a scratch on the cover!)

Almost picked up a cheap-ish (£40 or so) 10 piece + 5 lengths of wire bonsai tool set at the same time but talked myself out of it as it’d likely be far more tools than I need or know what to do with at this stage and at not the best quality (one review mentioned the edges don’t meet up nicely on their set). The books will likely shed light on what tools I may need to start with. With a garage full of my dads various general engineering/DIY/gardening tools, I’m sure I’ll be able to find suitable stuff to use for now.

Books will be here tomorrow. Figured if I’m getting the itch to work on that procumbens (its far too dense, doubt its been getting much rain to its roots, let alone sun inside the canopy!) I may as well go in as educated as I can since I’ll probably struggle getting to a workshop before September. May try putting some extra soil in down the sides if I can, water runs off the top of the soil down the gap between rootmass and pot, had to take it out the pot to give it a good watering the other day as its not rained in a while.
 
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