Ryan Neal article in The New Yorker

[HankDio]

The Japanese bonsai community were extremely unhappy with the translations used in the article, and found a lot of the wording exaggerated and in some cases simply untrue. The translator and Kimura requested a number of changes that were ignored. The translator was Makiko Koba and you can see her side of things on her facebook in a translated post that I have quoted here:

Makiko Koba (translated from original japanese):

Interviewed in May 2017, The New Yoker columnist Robert Moor's article appeared today after five years. At the time, as a currency, and this week, I've been racing to fact-checking between The New Yorker editorial department and Masataka Kimura, and the authors. Unfortunately some are not edited and covered.

The article consists of interviews with Ryan and the author, and there are certainly differences in Japanese-American culture and ideology. This story goes back more than 15 years in Japan, where the US is extremely strict on human rights and discrimination issues, and the old practices still linger in life, but Ryan's experience of his six-year training in Japan will change greatly depending on the reader's nationality. Some people may receive it negatively.

For the past few months, I've been spending days that can make me think deeply about Japan's apprenticeship system and human rights through Okinawa. I'd be happy if you could give me your sincere thoughts.

The New Yorker's interview with Robert Moor in May 2017 is finally out today. I was an interpreter at the time, and I have been busy this past week fact-checking between The New Yorker's editorial department, Master Masahiko Kimura, and the author. Unfortunately, some of the facts were not corrected in the article. The publisher denied to fix the wrong contents.

The article is constructed around the interviews between Ryan and the author, and there are inevitably differences in culture and thought between Japan and the United States. In the U.S., where human rights and discrimination issues are very important and essential, and in Japan, where old customs still persist in our daily life, Ryan's experience during his six years of apprenticeship in Japan, more than 15 years ago, though, may vary greatly depending on the reader's nationality and background. For some, it may be perceived negatively.

In the past few months, I have been deeply reflecting on the Japanese apprenticeship system, human rights, and other issues through bonsai.

On behalf of Master Kimura and Kimura school, I explain a bit more about it.
In countries influenced by Confucianism, elders are absolute, especially in the apprentice system, where the master is like a god. Especially in Japan, until the Edo period, each clan (now called a prefecture) had its own lord, who was absolutely different in status from the common people. The apprentice system is similar to this, and the apprentices could never talk back to the master. Some Unmotivated apprentices or those who did not learn well were disciplined strictly by their masters or senior apprentices, who would beat, slap, (not in all gardens), scold them. Of course, times have changed. Now there is no physical punishment in any bonsai gardens in Japan.

I would be very grateful if you could give me your honest opinion.
—————


Overall I didn’t find anything beneficial to the bonsai community from this article since physical punishment is no longer practiced in Japan as Makiko points out. Seems like a deeply personal experience that should have been left that way, though with toxic masculinity so prevalent in the U.S., good for Ryan for speaking out, but it seems distasteful to have done so through a major publication as opposed to a personal account. Just feels weird.

This is quite interesting to read, and accuracy in translation is deeply important, but I also think it misses the point when it comes to the purpose of this article. A good interviewer will tease out a narrative, and in the West we love the romanticized relationship between art and suffering/sacrifice. I think this is the real theme of the piece, and this explanation sounds like backpedaling to me personally. In this case, it's not really about bonsai.

As a reader of the New Yorker, I would like to the the other pretentious folks who read it understand that cultural differences are just that: Completely foreign, and sometimes offensive to our sensibilities. This is an aspect of a world where cultures and identities frequently clash. Sometimes we can't or shouldn't excuse certain behavior, but it's also a compelling, and true, story.

 

[jandslegate]

The article was about one mans experience, and that was part of it. The article did point out that physical punishment is no longer practiced.

I dont see the issue.

Hey man, semi-unrelated but...you got any more of them Nuance Mirai shirts? Also have you pitched them to Ryan for his official merch? I would absolutely buy one, lol.

 

[Sansokuu]

This is quite interesting to read, and accuracy in translation is deeply important, but I also think it misses the point when it comes to the purpose of this article. A good interviewer will tease out a narrative, and in the West we love the romanticized relationship between art and suffering/sacrifice. I think this is the real theme of the piece, and this explanation sounds like backpedaling to me personally. In this case, it's not really about bonsai.

It really isn’t about bonsai, but a lot of the bonsai community felt like it somehow became representative so a lot of people are upset for that reason. It is indeed cultural, the U.S. As a whole has a huge emphasis on drama and emotional turmoil (case in point gordon ramsey shows in the U.S. vs the UK - he is a very polite and nice guy in those shows ).

You would have to see the fb post to see more back and forth in the comments, but one example was ‘Kimura treated his apprentices like dogs’. Like ok we get that might be a common saying here but the translator and Kimura were not ok with this and he never said he did (taking it literally as something he said/thought). Considering how much of the world lags severely behind the U.S. in terms of humane treatment to pets this might have been really offensive to infer.

 

[Sansokuu]

The article was about one mans experience, and that was part of it. The article did point out that physical punishment is no longer practiced.

I dont see the issue.

You’d have to read Makiko’s comments back and forth in her fb post. If Ryan didn’t mention Kimura by name then it would have been more of ‘one man’s experience’. But now it is his experience, and a representation of Kimura. One thing she said was it was like throwing stones at Kimura, who taught Ryan everything he knew. It comes down to representation of character, I mean, it doesn’t exactly make Kimura sound like a nice guy. It was a private, personal experience that some feel should have stayed that way.

 

[Sansokuu]

I didn't know that Ryan Neil had chronic back pain and artritis in this fingers + psychological sequelae of his apprenticeship + financial difficulties despite the thousands of Mirai subscribers.
I'd be interested to know if Bjorn Bjornholm apprenticeship was the same, with the same painful consequences :/

A lot of bonsai practitioners have chronic issues like this. That fiddly wiring, lifting large trees - I know of a local bonsai artist who ended up with severe back issues because when he was younger he did a lot of the heavy lifting that the older bonsai artists had him do instead, much of it was also from work done at Mirai. You can bet the apprentices do a lot of the physically grueling work because they are a lot younger and physically more able.


All the more reason for y’all to get into shohin instead and I don’t know, train a squirrel to do the wiring.

 

[leatherback]

Hm.. Teaching styles and cultures vary so much from country to country it is a bit harsh to try and judge.

In the Netherlands typically we teach free thinking and open discussion. At my uniqversity we see a stark contrast with students from say japan and china, who we really need to trigger into asking questions. Does not make one better than the other.

A filled mind full of confidence is hard to change.

 

[Ruddigger]

You’d have to read Makiko’s comments back and forth in her fb post. If Ryan didn’t mention Kimura by name then it would have been more of ‘one man’s experience’. But now it is his experience, and a representation of Kimura. One thing she said was it was like throwing stones at Kimura, who taught Ryan everything he knew. It comes down to representation of character, I mean, it doesn’t exactly make Kimura sound like a nice guy. It was a private, personal experience that some feel should have stayed that way.

If he didnt mention Kimura by name, readers would think that Ryan’s experience would be the standard, and I don’t think it was. Its a story about a foreigners experience enduring 6 years with the hardest hardass in the business. Having read about others’ experiences like Bjorn and Hagedorn, while tough, they weren’t nearly as harsh.

Mr Kimura is running a business, and apprentices are part of that. While the bond between a master and an apprentice is closer than say me and my boss, it’s still a business, and not personal. I dont think any lines were crossed in the telling of this story.

As a side note, its a good rule of thumb not to engage in behavior that you wouldnt want the public to know about.

As a further aside, my teacher apprenticed with Kimura while Ryan was there, and was sent home due to injuring his back carrying trees, so yeah. He’s aways telling me not to lift the trees now.

 

[Ruddigger]

Hey man, semi-unrelated but...you got any more of them Nuance Mirai shirts? Also have you pitched them to Ryan for his official merch? I would absolutely buy one, lol.

I told him he should sell them, he didnt seem amenable to that.

I wont be selling them, too close to copyright infringement.

 

[jandslegate]

I told him he should sell them, he didnt seem amenable to that.

I wont be selling them, too close to copyright infringement.

Lol understandable.

 

[bonsaichile]

The Japanese bonsai community were extremely unhappy with the translations used in the article, and found a lot of the wording exaggerated and in some cases simply untrue. The translator and Kimura requested a number of changes that were ignored. The translator was Makiko Koba and you can see her side of things on her facebook in a translated post that I have quoted here:

Makiko Koba (translated from original japanese):

Interviewed in May 2017, The New Yoker columnist Robert Moor's article appeared today after five years. At the time, as a currency, and this week, I've been racing to fact-checking between The New Yorker editorial department and Masataka Kimura, and the authors. Unfortunately some are not edited and covered.

The article consists of interviews with Ryan and the author, and there are certainly differences in Japanese-American culture and ideology. This story goes back more than 15 years in Japan, where the US is extremely strict on human rights and discrimination issues, and the old practices still linger in life, but Ryan's experience of his six-year training in Japan will change greatly depending on the reader's nationality. Some people may receive it negatively.

For the past few months, I've been spending days that can make me think deeply about Japan's apprenticeship system and human rights through Okinawa. I'd be happy if you could give me your sincere thoughts.

The New Yorker's interview with Robert Moor in May 2017 is finally out today. I was an interpreter at the time, and I have been busy this past week fact-checking between The New Yorker's editorial department, Master Masahiko Kimura, and the author. Unfortunately, some of the facts were not corrected in the article. The publisher denied to fix the wrong contents.

The article is constructed around the interviews between Ryan and the author, and there are inevitably differences in culture and thought between Japan and the United States. In the U.S., where human rights and discrimination issues are very important and essential, and in Japan, where old customs still persist in our daily life, Ryan's experience during his six years of apprenticeship in Japan, more than 15 years ago, though, may vary greatly depending on the reader's nationality and background. For some, it may be perceived negatively.

In the past few months, I have been deeply reflecting on the Japanese apprenticeship system, human rights, and other issues through bonsai.

On behalf of Master Kimura and Kimura school, I explain a bit more about it.
In countries influenced by Confucianism, elders are absolute, especially in the apprentice system, where the master is like a god. Especially in Japan, until the Edo period, each clan (now called a prefecture) had its own lord, who was absolutely different in status from the common people. The apprentice system is similar to this, and the apprentices could never talk back to the master. Some Unmotivated apprentices or those who did not learn well were disciplined strictly by their masters or senior apprentices, who would beat, slap, (not in all gardens), scold them. Of course, times have changed. Now there is no physical punishment in any bonsai gardens in Japan.

I would be very grateful if you could give me your honest opinion.
—————


Overall I didn’t find anything beneficial to the bonsai community from this article since physical punishment is no longer practiced in Japan as Makiko points out. Seems like a deeply personal experience that should have been left that way, though with toxic masculinity so prevalent in the U.S., good for Ryan for speaking out, but it seems distasteful to have done so through a major publication as opposed to a personal account. Just feels weird.

Ryan Neil was brave enough to admit how damaging the experience was for him. Given that the article was not about bonsai, but about Ryan Neil (it is a profile, a kind of articles the New Yorker has been doing for decades in which they focus on one person and what makes them who they are), I see nothing wrong with that. Kimura was abusive. Cultural context matter to a degree, but that does not mean we have to excuse him. That's akin to saying boys will be boys to bail out a young punk for breaking the law. If things are going to change, abusers need to be named and the damage done acknowledged

 

[Colorado]

Seems like a huge issue if the publisher was made aware that there were factual inaccuracies in the article, but published it anyway.

Shoddy journalism, or worse, defamatory….

 

[rockm]

Hardly shoddy journalism. Lots of people get pissed about language used by others in magazines, newspapers, etc. That comes with the territory. Kimura and company "requested" changes. The magazine opted not to use them (and I'd bet those changes were pretty self-serving on Kimura's part--"change" requests like that usually are. The magazine has ultimate control over what goes in, not Kimura. I saw no facts in the story disputed. I saw people disagreeing with word choice and perception.

And frankly, if Kimura did treat his assistants like that, it's deplorable. Doing it to a Westerner not bound by Japanese tradition is kind of foolish, if you ask me.

I have been scratching my head over WHY Ryan would throw his mentor under the bus. However, the angle I keep coming up with is that he's fully committing to the U.S. market and leveraging his experience with Kimura (including all the warts) to get in with the art crowd that values such "for the sake of art" suffering. It's something of a romantic narrative, particularly in art circles in NYC and the West Coast...

 

[jandslegate]

Hardly shoddy journalism. Lots of people get pissed about language used by others in magazines, newspapers, etc. That comes with the territory. Kimura and company "requested" changes. The magazine opted not to use them (and I'd bet those changes were pretty self-serving on Kimura's part--"change" requests like that usually are. The magazine has ultimate control over what goes in, not Kimura. I saw no facts in the story disputed. I saw people disagreeing with word choice and perception.

And frankly, if Kimura did treat his assistants like that, it's deplorable. Doing it to a Westerner not bound by Japanese tradition is kind of foolish, if you ask me.

I have been scratching my head over WHY Ryan would throw his mentor under the bus. However, the angle I keep coming up with is that he's fully committing to the U.S. market and leveraging his experience with Kimura (including all the warts) to get in with the art crowd that values such "for the sake of art" suffering. It's something of a romantic narrative, particularly in art circles in NYC and the West Coast...

I think a lot of it also comes from him being genuinely hurt by how he was treated when returning after finishing his apprenticeship. I mean to go through all of what he went through and be treated like you're nothing. I can see some of that being a clash of cultures but a person is going to feel the way they feel and it's hard to fault someone for expressing it if asked. I mean you can literally pull up the YouTube video at any point where he chokes up telling the story about returning to Japan while in the middle of a styling demonstration. I think this was the catalyst for his decision to go all in on American Bonsai, as you mentioned.

Here's the link to the demonstration.

I'm sure many have seen it at some point. You can tell during the entire demo he's definitely not himself and seems sad in general. Also, first and only time I ever saw an F bomb dropped on a bonsai video, lol.

 

[Colorado]

Hardly shoddy journalism. Lots of people get pissed about language used by others in magazines, newspapers, etc. That comes with the territory. Kimura and company "requested" changes. The magazine opted not to use them (and I'd bet those changes were pretty self-serving on Kimura's part--"change" requests like that usually are. The magazine has ultimate control over what goes in, not Kimura. I saw no facts in the story disputed. I saw people disagreeing with word choice and perception.

And frankly, if Kimura did treat his assistants like that, it's deplorable. Doing it to a Westerner not bound by Japanese tradition is kind of foolish, if you ask me.

I have been scratching my head over WHY Ryan would throw his mentor under the bus. However, the angle I keep coming up with is that he's fully committing to the U.S. market and leveraging his experience with Kimura (including all the warts) to get in with the art crowd that values such "for the sake of art" suffering. It's something of a romantic narrative, particularly in art circles in NYC and the West Coast...

Wrong. Choice of language is, of course, up to the author.

What the author is not entitled to do is knowingly publish false, harmful information. Such as an inaccurate translation. So, no. The magazine does not have “ultimate control” over that. That’s defamation.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

In the Netherlands typically we teach free thinking and open discussion. At my uniqversity we see a stark contrast with students from say japan and china, who we really need to trigger into asking questions. Does not make one better than the other.

Oof, yeah, I had a Chinese student in my lab and the guy was a machine.
He did some of the best isolations of RNA I had seen in my life and we had to make special arrangements with security to make darn sure that he left the lab at 18:00 and wasn't allowed in before 7 in the morning. Otherwise he'd be working 24 hours a day.
He did in 2 days what other people took 6. But we had serious issues with some methods he didn't fully understand, because he simply didn't ask any questions at all. At one point he made a couple hundred measurements with the wrong settings, and he had to do it all again. It happens to all of us at some point, but I could almost physically feel the shame he expressed. Me and the lab head both decided to tell him that we would keep it a secret, which eased him a lot.

I didn't know that Ryan Neil had chronic back pain and artritis in this fingers + psychological sequelae of his apprenticeship + financial difficulties despite the thousands of Mirai subscribers.
I'd be interested to know if Bjorn Bjornholm apprenticeship was the same, with the same painful consequences :/

I know that mr. Bjorholm is quite a happy weight lifter, so I think he hasn't suffered the consequences in a physical sense. But I have to say that in the "back pain" game there's a lot going on with the idea that back pain is caused by weak muscles not being able to take the weight, putting all strain on the bones, intervertebral disks and ligaments. I know a couple guys, one well in his sixties, that fixed their back issues by lifting weights more often and strengthening the muscles. For me that's been working too. So it could just be that Bjorn is fixing the damage.

 

[rockm]

Wrong. Choice of language is, of course, up to the author.

What the author is not entitled to do is knowingly publish false, harmful information. Such as an inaccurate translation. So, no. The magazine does not have “ultimate control” over that. That’s defamation.

I highly doubt what the magazine (not the author) published is false. Magazines and newspapers, for the most part, are held liable for publishing false things, not reporters/writers. The reputable publications--like the New Yorker-- do all they can do guard against it. They do it regardless if you believe the BS about "fake news" Articles are edited and vetted (and with magazines such as this one FACT CHECKED with sources). Many of those fact checkers speak more than one language, although I don't know if they have a Japanese-speaker on their team, but I wouldn't bet they don't...FWIW, I don't see ANYONE disputing the facts in the article, not even Kimura. I have no doubt he's not at all happy about the story and is quibbling about translations, etc. because he comes off looking bad. People in stories where they're criticized are usually upset, pissed off. Doesn't make what was published wrong.

Now as for "harmful," well that's a greyer area. If magazines and newspapers shied away from not publishing possibly damaging information on someone doing something wrong, they'd A) go out of business B)wouldn't be doing their job c)help people do bad and/or egregious shit.

 

[jandslegate]

Oof, yeah, I had a Chinese student in my lab and the guy was a machine.
He did some of the best isolations of RNA I had seen in my life and we had to make special arrangements with security to make darn sure that he left the lab at 18:00 and wasn't allowed in before 7 in the morning. Otherwise he'd be working 24 hours a day.
He did in 2 days what other people took 6. But we had serious issues with some methods he didn't fully understand, because he simply didn't ask any questions at all. At one point he made a couple hundred measurements with the wrong settings, and he had to do it all again. It happens to all of us at some point, but I could almost physically feel the shame he expressed. Me and the lab head both decided to tell him that we would keep it a secret, which eased him a lot.



I know that mr. Bjorholm is quite a happy weight lifter, so I think he hasn't suffered the consequences in a physical sense. But I have to say that in the "back pain" game there's a lot going on with the idea that back pain is caused by weak muscles not being able to take the weight, putting all strain on the bones, intervertebral disks and ligaments. I know a couple guys, one well in his sixties, that fixed their back issues by lifting weights more often and strengthening the muscles. For me that's been working too. So it could just be that Bjorn is fixing the damage.

I have back issues that came way before bonsai but I can say what usually gets me is my posture when working on trees for an extended time. I think it's why I end up standing so often. When I went to my first workshop it felt so weird having to stay seated. I mean I guess I didn't have to buy I was nervous and everyone else was seated, heh.

 

[Colorado]

I highly doubt what the magazine (not the author) published is false. Magazines and newspapers, for the most part, are held liable for publishing false things, not reporters/writers. The reputable publications--like the New Yorker-- do all they can do guard against it. They do it regardless if you believe the BS about "fake news" Articles are edited and vetted (and with magazines such as this one FACT CHECKED with sources). Many of those fact checkers speak more than one language, although I don't know if they have a Japanese-speaker on their team, but I wouldn't bet they don't...FWIW, I don't see ANYONE disputing the facts in the article, not even Kimura. I have no doubt he's not at all happy about the story and is quibbling about translations, etc. because he comes off looking bad. People in stories where they're criticized are usually upset, pissed off. Doesn't make what was published wrong.

Now as for "harmful," well that's a greyer area. If magazines and newspapers shied away from not publishing possibly damaging information on someone doing something wrong, they'd A) go out of business B)wouldn't be doing their job c)help people do bad and/or egregious shit.

Well I agree with you that it has to be both false AND harmful. Those are both elements of the tort.

I also agree that no one appears to be disputing the portions about Kimura’s conduct.

Appears to be up for debate whether the translations were accurate or not. I cannot comment there as I do not know japanese. If the translation was inaccurate, the magazine knew it was inaccurate, and published it anyway, well that’s a problem in my humble opinion.

It’s always a pleasure debating with you, @rockm … especially since I am the one who is always right

 

[rockm]

"If the translation was inaccurate, the magazine knew it was inaccurate, and published it anyway, well that’s a problem in my humble opinion."

It's more than a problem. It's defamation/liable, legally actionable and potentially very expensive for the publication, which is why there are many guardrails internally to guard against such things, from fact checkers to layers of editors.

 

[Wood]

You’d have to read Makiko’s comments back and forth in her fb post. [...]

Do you have a link to Makiko's Facebook post so we can see the context?